Proposal and Discussion: Limit the MS thread access
Nov 7, 2014, 3:00 pm
#512
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Down South, The Desert
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Posts: 1,871
You seem to have real trouble with recognizing opinions. Most of what is stated on an internet forum is someone's opinion - not an assertion of fact.
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Nov 7, 2014, 3:11 pm
#513
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
You seem to have real trouble with recognizing opinions. Most of what is stated on an internet forum is someone's opinion - not an assertion of fact.
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Is it a person who tries to cover up or withhold new-to-forum information shared by others?
Is it a person who has first hand new-to-forum information but doesn't share?
Is it a person who has second hand new-to-forum information but doesn't share?
Is it a person who has no new-to-forum information and makes no attempt to find any?
Is it a person who has no new-to-forum information but simply wants points/miles?
Is it a person who MSes "a lot"?
Is it a person who takes information from the forum and does their MS in a haphazard and dangerous fashion endangering that gig for others?
Is it a person who takes information from the forum and puts it on their blog?
What do you want?
We all put our miles in a pot and divide equally at the end of the year?
We make pamphlets and go door to door sharing the methods?
We assist the MS disabled and needy because it's not their fault they live in a bad MS area or don't have the CL, risk tolerance, patience, innovative mind, or reading comprehension?
Nov 7, 2014, 3:14 pm
#514
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Madison, WI, USA
Posts: 14,162
You seem to have real trouble with recognizing opinions. Most of what is stated on an internet forum is someone's opinion - not an assertion of fact.
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Of course, most statements here are unverifiable for the sheer reason that no one is doing a research study on said situation.
Just because you preface your opinions with "I think," doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. It also doesn't obscure your implication that people who move to smaller forums are "selfish."
Nov 7, 2014, 3:29 pm
#515
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere above the Mason-Dixon
Programs: DL Ham Samich
Posts: 1,661
And I'll even do your response for you:
Blah blah hyperbole, opinions, proof, blah blah no one cares
Nov 7, 2014, 3:31 pm
#516
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
Back to the topic at hand, I request the moderators to create a poll for the MS forum, on the MS forum, that registered users can vote in. I propose the following question:
Please provide your desired requirements to access the MS subforum (select all that apply):
1) None
2) Registered FT user, who is logged In
3) T&C Modification to prohibit blogging of information
4) Minimum post requirement
5) Minimum join date (duration to current day) requirement
6) Vetting by Moderators
7) Vetting by elected elder(s)
Feel free to add/subtract. The key will be having it as a multi-select. I think we'll see a drop off as some level that we can call minimum consensus.
Please provide your desired requirements to access the MS subforum (select all that apply):
1) None
2) Registered FT user, who is logged In
3) T&C Modification to prohibit blogging of information
4) Minimum post requirement
5) Minimum join date (duration to current day) requirement
6) Vetting by Moderators
7) Vetting by elected elder(s)
Feel free to add/subtract. The key will be having it as a multi-select. I think we'll see a drop off as some level that we can call minimum consensus.
Nov 7, 2014, 3:44 pm
#517
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 215
Nov 7, 2014, 6:02 pm
#518
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
1) None
2) Registered FT user, who is logged In
3) T&C Modification to prohibit blogging of information
Will this be across all the forums of FT? We really don't have rules that apply to one forum, aside from entry restrictions on 4 of them. Whats the consequence if you do blog? Who enforces that?
4) Minimum post requirement
A. 30, B. 60, C. 90, D. 180
180 posts is currently required for restricted forums
5) Minimum join date (duration to current day) requirement
A. 30 days, B. 60 days, C. 90 days, D. 180 days
180 days is currently required for restricted forums
6) Vetting by Moderators
I'm glad to see the moderators have offered to do this, but what criteria will they use to admit new members? The devil is in the details. Will number of posts and length of membership factor in? What weight would it have? Will they be judging the quality of posts made in other forums to get entry here?
7) Vetting by elected elder(s)
Again, is there some minimum criteria to have your name submitted? How many members? Are these members appointed or do they run for election? What criteria will they use to admit new members to the forum? Will they be judging quality of posts across all the forums of FT?
As you can see, I do think you really need to spell out a lot more than you have, or members may select something in the poll that they may not like in the end. The details matter. I'm particularly concerned about vetting by moderators and elders and exactly what that entails.
Good luck.
2) Registered FT user, who is logged In
3) T&C Modification to prohibit blogging of information
Will this be across all the forums of FT? We really don't have rules that apply to one forum, aside from entry restrictions on 4 of them. Whats the consequence if you do blog? Who enforces that?
4) Minimum post requirement
A. 30, B. 60, C. 90, D. 180
180 posts is currently required for restricted forums
5) Minimum join date (duration to current day) requirement
A. 30 days, B. 60 days, C. 90 days, D. 180 days
180 days is currently required for restricted forums
6) Vetting by Moderators
I'm glad to see the moderators have offered to do this, but what criteria will they use to admit new members? The devil is in the details. Will number of posts and length of membership factor in? What weight would it have? Will they be judging the quality of posts made in other forums to get entry here?
7) Vetting by elected elder(s)
Again, is there some minimum criteria to have your name submitted? How many members? Are these members appointed or do they run for election? What criteria will they use to admit new members to the forum? Will they be judging quality of posts across all the forums of FT?
As you can see, I do think you really need to spell out a lot more than you have, or members may select something in the poll that they may not like in the end. The details matter. I'm particularly concerned about vetting by moderators and elders and exactly what that entails.
Good luck.
Last edited by tom911; Nov 7, 2014 at 6:09 pm Reason: formatting
Nov 7, 2014, 6:42 pm
#519
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 270
Tom, thanks for the feedback. I understand the desire for specifics, but I think it would be best to get the pulse on "what form" first (if any) and then explore that requirement specifics later. The poll could be expanded to include all those sub-options but I think results would be very sparse and inconclusive. I think anyone who votes for a direction other than "None" will happy if their "method" is chosen even if the number isn't as high as they would like because it is directionally correct for what they desire.
The T&C would be just for the sub-forum. Enforced preferably through cease and desist. I know this is unlikely to be realistic but I think it would satisfy one of the most common complaints about the blogs poaching peoples' work and broadcasting it to the world do the determent of the longevity of the deal.
Regarding post counts and join duration, I don't have a specific number. If anything I would default to the defacto standard if that specific of a poll is needed. I would prefer to have the community decide if that ends up being a consensus direction.
Regarding Moderators and Elders, neither have volunteered, nor have they been asked. Criteria would be completely up to them. This is an attempt to give a subjective alternative to post counts / join duration.
Again, the idea here is to get a pulse. Maybe its 80% "None" and then we drop it. Maybe the mods don't want to play immigration judge. Maybe we can't agree on who is an elder. Let's find out.
The T&C would be just for the sub-forum. Enforced preferably through cease and desist. I know this is unlikely to be realistic but I think it would satisfy one of the most common complaints about the blogs poaching peoples' work and broadcasting it to the world do the determent of the longevity of the deal.
Regarding post counts and join duration, I don't have a specific number. If anything I would default to the defacto standard if that specific of a poll is needed. I would prefer to have the community decide if that ends up being a consensus direction.
Regarding Moderators and Elders, neither have volunteered, nor have they been asked. Criteria would be completely up to them. This is an attempt to give a subjective alternative to post counts / join duration.
Again, the idea here is to get a pulse. Maybe its 80% "None" and then we drop it. Maybe the mods don't want to play immigration judge. Maybe we can't agree on who is an elder. Let's find out.
Nov 8, 2014, 9:25 am
#520
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: In the ATL
Posts: 156
Sure, as long as they aren't recruited to the private forums when they (a) demonstrate a clue and (b) realize that it's in the MS community's best interest to get away from most of the idiots that don't want to do anything other than get spoonfed here. Or ignore all of the posted info and do stupid stuff that results in deals getting killed. Or both.
You have a rather naive and idealistic view of how things should work (while singing Kumbaya I guess), but the reality is that the best and brightest have already left the building and will continue to do so.
You have a rather naive and idealistic view of how things should work (while singing Kumbaya I guess), but the reality is that the best and brightest have already left the building and will continue to do so.
Nov 8, 2014, 9:52 am
#521
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
Nov 8, 2014, 10:31 am
#522
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Posts: 100,417
Sounds like you're writing off the Talk Board before there's even a proposal in play for them to vote on. I've only seen one Talk Board member posting here recently so it's impossible to predict how they would vote on any motion put before them. The only motion proposed this year (and it was by a member that is not on Talk Board) dealt with restricting access due to rude posters and imposing 180 days/180 posts before you ever get in here. It did not gain any traction among Talk Board members to even be voted on. Dealing with rude posters is clearly a moderation issue, not a Talk Board issue.
The problem with presenting a proposal to the Talk Board is that there is no single school of thought on this forum. Some want entry restrictions (and there's a wide range of options here), others don't. There's been proposals that a quiz be required for entry, that the forum be split into two with one section being for experts, and that there be a panel of forum veterans to decide who gets into that forum. Each of those proposals brings up a new list of questions as to how they're going to be implemented.
Do you really think you're going to get an entire forum to agree with a single proposal? It's just not going to happen. This thread is 11 months old now and that one thing seems pretty clear. The only votes that matter in the end are those of the Talk Board. That's who needs to be convinced. If you or someone else has a proposal, round up your support and post it on the Talk Board forum so they can vote on it.
The problem with presenting a proposal to the Talk Board is that there is no single school of thought on this forum. Some want entry restrictions (and there's a wide range of options here), others don't. There's been proposals that a quiz be required for entry, that the forum be split into two with one section being for experts, and that there be a panel of forum veterans to decide who gets into that forum. Each of those proposals brings up a new list of questions as to how they're going to be implemented.
Do you really think you're going to get an entire forum to agree with a single proposal? It's just not going to happen. This thread is 11 months old now and that one thing seems pretty clear. The only votes that matter in the end are those of the Talk Board. That's who needs to be convinced. If you or someone else has a proposal, round up your support and post it on the Talk Board forum so they can vote on it.
My impression so far is that there isn't a consensus (yet?) that access to the MS forum should be restricted, but I'm willing to be convinced. A well constructed poll could be helpful, especially if a lot of those who are active in this forum vote (but note that you cannot restrict any member of FT from voting), but thoughtful and well articulated posts in the relelvant Talk Board Topics thread are likely to be the most effective way to suggest changes.
I should also point out that the role of Talk Board on FT is advisory. We can vote to recommend changes, but the ultimate decisions rest with our Community Director.
Nov 8, 2014, 10:49 am
#523
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 291
The reason why many members are not active here is likely because no changes have already been implemented.
Nov 8, 2014, 12:13 pm
#524
Suspended
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,998
Are you guys still .....ing about this?
The forum isn't going to change. For all the complaining people do, the forces that run/own it have made a decision to set it up as they have. You can either accept that or find other venues to discuss MS. There are far more productive uses of time(*) than to try to win an internet fight with a faceless username.
In summary:
You're not going to change anyone's mind.
Nobody is going to change your mind.
Flyertalk, Inc doesn't care.
You sound like old ladies fighting over the last package of mallomars @ the grocery store.
* For example
The forum isn't going to change. For all the complaining people do, the forces that run/own it have made a decision to set it up as they have. You can either accept that or find other venues to discuss MS. There are far more productive uses of time(*) than to try to win an internet fight with a faceless username.
In summary:
You're not going to change anyone's mind.
Nobody is going to change your mind.
Flyertalk, Inc doesn't care.
You sound like old ladies fighting over the last package of mallomars @ the grocery store.
* For example