Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks
Jul 26, 2020, 5:48 am
#106
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The key is just to stick with the language of EC 261/2004 as well as the terms of your credit card. The bottom line is that whether one has a right of entry, hurt one's toe, or simply wishes not to travel, so long as the carrier has cancelled the flight, one is entitled to a refund.
LX likely gets away with this in Switzerland as well as in other countries where chargeback processes are less customer-favorable. It also likely gets away with this because most passengers simply give up. But, persistence pays off.
It is also worth noting that merchant acquiring banks hold back a percentage of credit card payments due to the merchant, LX in this case, based in large part on chargeback experience. Thus, the more chargebacks, the more cash is held back and the more dire LX's situation becomes. Thus, over time, LX will hopefully pay out without chargebacks as forcing chargebacks is slowing its cash flow.
LX likely gets away with this in Switzerland as well as in other countries where chargeback processes are less customer-favorable. It also likely gets away with this because most passengers simply give up. But, persistence pays off.
It is also worth noting that merchant acquiring banks hold back a percentage of credit card payments due to the merchant, LX in this case, based in large part on chargeback experience. Thus, the more chargebacks, the more cash is held back and the more dire LX's situation becomes. Thus, over time, LX will hopefully pay out without chargebacks as forcing chargebacks is slowing its cash flow.
Jul 27, 2020, 2:07 am
#107
Join Date: Nov 2004
Programs: BA GGL, LH FTL
Posts: 3,578
Looks like a mod moved my posts over here in error - just to give the above post some context: Following the failed credit card charge back I raised a MCOL in the UK - which effectively means suing them. The legal route seems most effective in dealing with them.
Jul 27, 2020, 2:30 am
#108
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Rhineland-Palatinate
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Posts: 5,701
Or if you want to do this faster and more efficiently (for you), simply make your request to the carrier for a refund and wait seven days. If, on the 8th day the carrier has not initiated a refund, file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) and supply the documents which back it up at the time of the chargeback:
1. Copy of EC 261/2004, Section 8 - highlighting the refund as an option. (don't supply the entire document).
2. Copy of e-ticket receipt.
3. Copy of notice of cancellation (or significant flight time change).
4. Your request for a refund.
5. Carrier response (if there has been one) or note that you have not heard back,
For UK and US banks, a temporary credit should appear in short order and that will become permanent unless the carrier can somehow demonstrate that it did not cancel (or substantially change) the flight.
No need to send letters before action, pay filing fees or do anything beyond the above, Most issuers have an online portal for this, including the ability to upload the relevant documents. For others, it may cost you a stamp. Don't be tempted to do this orally, even though it may save you a day or two.
1. Copy of EC 261/2004, Section 8 - highlighting the refund as an option. (don't supply the entire document).
2. Copy of e-ticket receipt.
3. Copy of notice of cancellation (or significant flight time change).
4. Your request for a refund.
5. Carrier response (if there has been one) or note that you have not heard back,
For UK and US banks, a temporary credit should appear in short order and that will become permanent unless the carrier can somehow demonstrate that it did not cancel (or substantially change) the flight.
No need to send letters before action, pay filing fees or do anything beyond the above, Most issuers have an online portal for this, including the ability to upload the relevant documents. For others, it may cost you a stamp. Don't be tempted to do this orally, even though it may save you a day or two.
- Chargeback is done over phone (only way with Amex Germany, there are no forms or portal to do this)
- I can not provide a proof of refund as LH agreed to refund by phone and refuse to provide it in writing
Now LH contest the chargeback based on ticket rules (non refundable) and does not acknowledge to Amex that the flight was cancelled. Amex sided with LH as I can not provide a proof LH acknowledged a refund is due.
Jul 27, 2020, 4:30 am
#109
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,164
This is what I did with Amex Germany and LH. With two exceptions:
- Chargeback is done over phone (only way with Amex Germany, there are no forms or portal to do this)
- I can not provide a proof of refund as LH agreed to refund by phone and refuse to provide it in writing
Now LH contest the chargeback based on ticket rules (non refundable) and does not acknowledge to Amex that the flight was cancelled. Amex sided with LH as I can not provide a proof LH acknowledged a refund is due.
- Chargeback is done over phone (only way with Amex Germany, there are no forms or portal to do this)
- I can not provide a proof of refund as LH agreed to refund by phone and refuse to provide it in writing
Now LH contest the chargeback based on ticket rules (non refundable) and does not acknowledge to Amex that the flight was cancelled. Amex sided with LH as I can not provide a proof LH acknowledged a refund is due.
Last edited by Tafflyer; Jul 27, 2020 at 5:01 am
Jul 27, 2020, 5:16 am
#110
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Do we know the name of the manager at Amex Germany, who is knowingly trying to defraud the cardholders by "accepting" the BS excuses from LH and LX?
It's time for that chap to make an appointment with the Arbeitsamt.
It's time for that chap to make an appointment with the Arbeitsamt.
Jul 27, 2020, 7:44 am
#112
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 11,853
Yeah, I have yet to understand why you guys proceed with charge backs when it seem fruitless; all the frustration and time/energy used for nothing (except for complicating the refund that LH/LX etc will make at some stage; it is just a matter of time). Accept the reality that refunds are seriously delayed (for obvious reasons) whether you like or not rather than trying to force a quicker refund from your card issuer. Just my cents on all the posts in this thread and similar threads in this forum by upset and frustrated posters getting nowhere.
Jul 27, 2020, 7:59 am
#113
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Unfortunately, its AmEx corporate policy to decline / not accept any chargebacks related to travel purchases.
The only thing you can do is step away from them and get a card from a different bank.
The only thing you can do is step away from them and get a card from a different bank.
Jul 27, 2020, 9:49 am
#114
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
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They “accepted” my chargeback twice, once initially and then on the representment. In each case the Airline disputed with BS. Different BS each time but BS all the same. Amex declared there is nothing they can do. I’ve spent my 500,000 Membership Rewards points while they had the double value redemptions running and have cancelled both my personal amd business platinum card accounts. have also complained to the German regulator about them and my lawyer is checking if there is a potential criminal case either against Swiss for deliberately supplying falsehoods or for Amex immediately accepting information received from the airline that was already proven as incorrect by documents Amex already had to hand. Amex has a duty of care to is’t cardmembers which it is simply ignoring at the moment.
Jul 27, 2020, 10:01 am
#115
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,164
Yeah, I have yet to understand why you guys proceed with charge backs when it seem fruitless; all the frustration and time/energy used for nothing (except for complicating the refund that LH/LX etc will make at some stage; it is just a matter of time). Accept the reality that refunds are seriously delayed (for obvious reasons) whether you like or not rather than trying to force a quicker refund from your card issuer. Just my cents on all the posts in this thread and similar threads in this forum by upset and frustrated posters getting nowhere.
And now we can bail out these criminals with our taxes, to the tune of double what their enterprise is currently worth, for a measly 20% of the equity, and while the perpetrators got off scott free. I do not trust these people to ever orderly refund everybody out of pocket through this. They have lied and cheated all along. They have left cancelled flights on the schedule to get more passengers to cancel voluntarily. They have not refunded in time, if at all. They have charged extra fares for tickets which should have been rebooked free of charge. They have fobbed off chargebacks with irrelevant excuses or lies. And worst of all, they have done all this for selfish advantage over “the little guy”. If there were a regulator in the world with any teeth, these guys would be behind bars as well as bankrupt.
Jul 27, 2020, 10:29 am
#116
Join Date: Jun 2002
Programs: LH SEN, HH Dia
Posts: 535
It seems that I have a different experience with Amex Germany than others here. I had four chargebacks (three with LH, one with EW), all were accepted/processed by Amex and so far (it has been 3 months now) there was no word that the airline would reject any of them. So for me it was a painless process to get the money back, at least so far.
Jul 27, 2020, 10:42 am
#117
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denmark
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I believe in the beginning AMEX would process the charge backs as AMEX did in the past but at some stage AMEX realised that this could not continue (most likely AMEX was flooded with charge back requests) and AMEX started to side with the airlines in order to avoid processing/approving the charge backs (most likely AMEX realised that at some stage the refunds would become their risk and problem if the airlines would be unable to pay/the security deposits with AMEX would be depleted).
Jul 27, 2020, 8:09 pm
#118
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 321
Yeah, I have yet to understand why you guys proceed with charge backs when it seem fruitless; all the frustration and time/energy used for nothing (except for complicating the refund that LH/LX etc will make at some stage; it is just a matter of time). Accept the reality that refunds are seriously delayed (for obvious reasons) whether you like or not rather than trying to force a quicker refund from your card issuer. Just my cents on all the posts in this thread and similar threads in this forum by upset and frustrated posters getting nowhere.
why don't you float us all the money and we promise to repay you at some point?
Jul 28, 2020, 2:19 am
#119
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
Yeah, I have yet to understand why you guys proceed with charge backs when it seem fruitless; all the frustration and time/energy used for nothing (except for complicating the refund that LH/LX etc will make at some stage; it is just a matter of time). Accept the reality that refunds are seriously delayed (for obvious reasons) whether you like or not rather than trying to force a quicker refund from your card issuer. Just my cents on all the posts in this thread and similar threads in this forum by upset and frustrated posters getting nowhere.
In these forums folk post about frustrations rather than things progressing normally. So you hear about the few disputes that drag on, but not those that work just fine.
I had two Lufthansa refunds requested at the same time, in March. Both absolutely straightforward - Lufthansa cancelled the flights.
After a few weeks i started a dispute for one of the refunds. The chargeback took 4 weeks to get to the head of VISA's processing line. 2 weeks later I got the credit to my account.
Not the speediest of actions. But it was another month before Lufthansa settled the the second refund.
Aug 15, 2020, 4:33 am
#120
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: GIB BCN LUX MLA GOT LCA ATH
Programs: Miles and More FTL; Miles and Bonus *G; Emirates
Posts: 94
Yeah, I have yet to understand why you guys proceed with charge backs when it seem fruitless; all the frustration and time/energy used for nothing (except for complicating the refund that LH/LX etc will make at some stage; it is just a matter of time). Accept the reality that refunds are seriously delayed (for obvious reasons) whether you like or not rather than trying to force a quicker refund from your card issuer. Just my cents on all the posts in this thread and similar threads in this forum by upset and frustrated posters getting nowhere.