Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks
May 25, 2020, 3:10 am
#46
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The argument put forward by Lufthansa is specious. It suggests that where a country has closed its borders to non-residents, or to selected nationalities, the airline can pocket the fares paid for transport if it cancels the flight, trumping any reference to consumer law.
Even if such absurdity were accepted, the airline has very limited information about the passenger and his/her immigration status with the destination country, dual-nationalities, or any (secondary) passports held by the passenger. The true craziness would then involve a Timatic-fuelled judgement by credit card companies of the legitimacy and validity of travel documents.
May 25, 2020, 4:27 am
#47
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So the question remains; how can we force credit card companies to enforce EU law on their merchants. If Amex, for example, is accepting nonsensical argumentation from Lufthansa rejecting a chargeback, does that not make Amex just as liable as Lufthansa.
Would I be free to initiate proceedings against both the airline and the bank not just for the refund but for other losses suffered as a consequence, like interest payments, loss of hotel bookings etc.?
Or should we initate another injunction in the same way we did to force Lufthansa to rebook flights without upfaring?
Another avenue I thought about is the travel insurance route. This is also with Amex. My platinum card has quite comprehensive insurance to reimburse travel costs due to failure of the service provider. This would be interesting as it pushes the card organisation into the corner with regard to the choice of getting the refund from their merchant or their own insurers.
Would I be free to initiate proceedings against both the airline and the bank not just for the refund but for other losses suffered as a consequence, like interest payments, loss of hotel bookings etc.?
Or should we initate another injunction in the same way we did to force Lufthansa to rebook flights without upfaring?
Another avenue I thought about is the travel insurance route. This is also with Amex. My platinum card has quite comprehensive insurance to reimburse travel costs due to failure of the service provider. This would be interesting as it pushes the card organisation into the corner with regard to the choice of getting the refund from their merchant or their own insurers.
May 25, 2020, 6:43 am
#48
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Tafflyer I think we can't do much about the Visa/Mastercard policy. Until now, it was their good-will to process the chargeback and usually in customer's favor. Personally, for the last 10 years, I never had a rejected dispute, all cases valid and closed in my favor. In the covid19 reality they simply have too many claims so decided not to be that good for customers.
All these rules about chargeback, is only an agreement between bank and Visa/Mastercard. In our relationship with bank we don't have anything with chargeback guaranteed. So there is nothing we can claim actually.
All these rules about chargeback, is only an agreement between bank and Visa/Mastercard. In our relationship with bank we don't have anything with chargeback guaranteed. So there is nothing we can claim actually.
May 25, 2020, 6:43 am
#49
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So the question remains; how can we force credit card companies to enforce EU law on their merchants. If Amex, for example, is accepting nonsensical argumentation from Lufthansa rejecting a chargeback, does that not make Amex just as liable as Lufthansa.
Would I be free to initiate proceedings against both the airline and the bank not just for the refund but for other losses suffered as a consequence, like interest payments, loss of hotel bookings etc.?
Or should we initate another injunction in the same way we did to force Lufthansa to rebook flights without upfaring?
Another avenue I thought about is the travel insurance route. This is also with Amex. My platinum card has quite comprehensive insurance to reimburse travel costs due to failure of the service provider. This would be interesting as it pushes the card organisation into the corner with regard to the choice of getting the refund from their merchant or their own insurers.
Would I be free to initiate proceedings against both the airline and the bank not just for the refund but for other losses suffered as a consequence, like interest payments, loss of hotel bookings etc.?
Or should we initate another injunction in the same way we did to force Lufthansa to rebook flights without upfaring?
Another avenue I thought about is the travel insurance route. This is also with Amex. My platinum card has quite comprehensive insurance to reimburse travel costs due to failure of the service provider. This would be interesting as it pushes the card organisation into the corner with regard to the choice of getting the refund from their merchant or their own insurers.
In your current situation, where your initial claim has been rejected, you can complain to the credit card company. They must reply within a specified time limit, after which you can take your complaint to the omdudsman. Again, that's how things work here: I imagine there are similar processes to go through in other jurisdictions
I don't believe the UK is not unique in its provisions under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Under S75 you can claim from the bak issuing your card, or from the merchant. The bank is going to prefer you go for the merchant, but the choice is yours - and as Lufthansa is clearly being evasive, the cc bank is probably the best target. If the bank refuses your claim, you can take it to court or take he case to the ombudsman. A Section 75 claim is more hedged with conditions, but it has an advantage over the internally regulated dispute/chargeback in that it is a legally enforcable process AND you can claim for consequential damages.
Travel insurance gets tricky. Many insurers appear to recognise only very limited liability to COVID-associated claims, and the date you made the reservation would be crucial in assessing that liability.
May 25, 2020, 7:28 am
#50
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sinus My card is an Amex Platinum issued in Germany
IAN-UK the chargeback has not yet been rejected by Swiss. I am still hoping that since my cancellation confirmation did mention the ticket being sent for refund, that any attempted rejection by the airline would not be accepted by Amex. I estimate that taking another week or so to when the 45 days period that Amex gives the airline to respond will expire. Nothing to do but wait and see until then.
IAN-UK the chargeback has not yet been rejected by Swiss. I am still hoping that since my cancellation confirmation did mention the ticket being sent for refund, that any attempted rejection by the airline would not be accepted by Amex. I estimate that taking another week or so to when the 45 days period that Amex gives the airline to respond will expire. Nothing to do but wait and see until then.
May 25, 2020, 9:37 am
#51
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May 26, 2020, 11:39 am
#52
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 5
Hello everyone.
As many here I got my flight with Swiss airlines cancelled in middle of April. My flight was BERLIN-ZURICH ZURICH-BERLIN
As soon as I got the email I request the refund and I patiently wait for 7 days.
On 8th day, I contacted my bank and started the chargeback process, wait for another 30 days and got I reply that my chargeback os denied because of. Swiss airlines send some receipts, including one that I agreed with terms and conditions, and based on their my request didn`t make any sense. And after telling my bank that I had nothing to do with the cancellation they replied me that a recent VISA policy change didn't allow them to continue with the chargeback and they close the case:
So I thought, OK, I might use this money travelling anyway, let's get the voucher. Easy, right? no:
After discussing this with Swiss airlines for sometime I got the following messages
Anyway, I've sent a message to my bank, let's see what is their reply. I just wanted to know if there's anyone in a similar situation and what was the outcome.
As many here I got my flight with Swiss airlines cancelled in middle of April. My flight was BERLIN-ZURICH ZURICH-BERLIN
As soon as I got the email I request the refund and I patiently wait for 7 days.
On 8th day, I contacted my bank and started the chargeback process, wait for another 30 days and got I reply that my chargeback os denied because of. Swiss airlines send some receipts, including one that I agreed with terms and conditions, and based on their my request didn`t make any sense. And after telling my bank that I had nothing to do with the cancellation they replied me that a recent VISA policy change didn't allow them to continue with the chargeback and they close the case:
Unfortunately, there was a recent update in the regulations Visa, which expresses that if one service was cancelled due to one governmental law, restriction or prohibition and the Merchant is providing a Voucher, Credit or reasonable alternative, then, we do not have chargeback rights in order to go further with the claim in Visa. As a consequence of this, regrettably, we cannot continue pursuing the claim further for those charges because we do not have chargeback rights to continue the process in Visa.
Partially used ticket
Your ticket cannot be processed online but remains valid. Please contact our Service Center to change your booking if you know your new travel requirements.
Your ticket cannot be processed online but remains valid. Please contact our Service Center to change your booking if you know your new travel requirements.
Hi, thank you for your inquiry and patience. After reviewing the details of your reservation, it seems that a chargeback request was made directly with your bank regarding the booking number A1B2C3D4. Therefore, the ticket status is not showing an open segment. We hope this clarifies. Kind regards, ...
Hi, apologies for the late response.Please contact your Bank as the transaction has been cancelled. Regards, ...
Hi, please note that the ticket was suspended as per previous advise. In this case, then the last say will be with your bank .You will need to contact them for further information regarding your refund. Hope that this clarify. Kind regards, ....
May 26, 2020, 4:15 pm
#53
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Perhaps this is useful for some:
https://www.rechteindeutig.de/luftha...klageerhebung/
“Lufthansa refunding after commencing legal process” (German)
The jist of this is that once legal action has been filed, Lufthansa is also liable for legal costs as well as interest on the amounts due to be refunded. This changes what they seem to currently see as an interest-free loan into something quite unattractive.
https://www.rechteindeutig.de/luftha...klageerhebung/
“Lufthansa refunding after commencing legal process” (German)
The jist of this is that once legal action has been filed, Lufthansa is also liable for legal costs as well as interest on the amounts due to be refunded. This changes what they seem to currently see as an interest-free loan into something quite unattractive.
May 26, 2020, 4:33 pm
#54
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Of course, Lufthansa is not going to allow that a court issues a writ/enforcement title against them. With a writ the bank accounts of Lufthansa can be seized, so they pay quickly once a "Klageerhebung" reaches their desks.
So, Lufthansa knows that only 1% of all affected pax will sue them in court. Even if Lufthansa has to pay the court and lawyer fees, it's still a good deal for them.
A shameful business practise nonetheless. And this is the reason not to trust Lufthansa large amounts of money in the future.
So, Lufthansa knows that only 1% of all affected pax will sue them in court. Even if Lufthansa has to pay the court and lawyer fees, it's still a good deal for them.
A shameful business practise nonetheless. And this is the reason not to trust Lufthansa large amounts of money in the future.
May 29, 2020, 5:26 am
#55
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 5
Lufthansa is a scam
I did not find a thread about chargebacks but if a suitable one exists, dear Moderators please merge.
There was recently a thread started by Andaz about LH's rejection of a chargeback, and I experienced the same thing today.
I had a ticket from KBP to LHR via FRA for 03/26 and back on 03/29. Lufthansa canceled all flights from KBP 10 days before I was due to travel. Since I booked via Expedia I tried calling them to ask for a refund but it was impossible to get through, so after 2 weeks of trying I gave up, called my bank (Citi) and asked if it was OK for me to initiate a chargeback due to it being impossible to contact the merchant. They said that I should go ahead and so I did.
Citi forwarded Lufthansa's response today rejecting the chargeback, and that must have been the most ridiculous and dishonest response I have read. Lufthansa must have some boilerplate response that its agents fill in without bothering to check what actually happened.
The response started with stating that the passenger would not have been able to enter the country at his destination due to the travel restrictions effective in Ireland. Then there was a link to check all travel restrictions and words to the effect that according to Article blah-blah LH has the right to refuse to carry a passenger to prevent violation of applicable immigration laws. That was the first thing that raised eyebrows as I was not traveling either to or through Ireland.
Then it got more interesting as in the very next line Lufthansa wrote that I was travelling from JFK to KBP and due to the above-mentioned restrictions in Ireland I would not have been allowed to enter the country at KBP and therefore Lufthansa had the right to refuse transportation. Since the ticket was non-refundable I am due only taxes and fees, And then a long list of my options to rebook with a EUR50 bonus.
I honestly am not sure what to think of the response as it simply makes no sense. A) LH did not refuse transportation but simply canceled the flights 10 days before the travel. B). I was not travelling to KBP (they even attached a copy of the ticket with the complete itinerary). I was starting in Ukraine, which is where I live.
C) My destination was the UK which did not and still does not have any entry restrictions. Where did Ireland and JFK come into play is beyond me.
One would have to really try to come up with such nonsense.
This is not it as Citi has not closed the case but simply asked me to reply, and I am not sure how to find nice words to call out LH on their BS.
I did not mean to complain or anything with this post. I was just amused with the response and wanted to share it for entertainment and as a data point
There was recently a thread started by Andaz about LH's rejection of a chargeback, and I experienced the same thing today.
I had a ticket from KBP to LHR via FRA for 03/26 and back on 03/29. Lufthansa canceled all flights from KBP 10 days before I was due to travel. Since I booked via Expedia I tried calling them to ask for a refund but it was impossible to get through, so after 2 weeks of trying I gave up, called my bank (Citi) and asked if it was OK for me to initiate a chargeback due to it being impossible to contact the merchant. They said that I should go ahead and so I did.
Citi forwarded Lufthansa's response today rejecting the chargeback, and that must have been the most ridiculous and dishonest response I have read. Lufthansa must have some boilerplate response that its agents fill in without bothering to check what actually happened.
The response started with stating that the passenger would not have been able to enter the country at his destination due to the travel restrictions effective in Ireland. Then there was a link to check all travel restrictions and words to the effect that according to Article blah-blah LH has the right to refuse to carry a passenger to prevent violation of applicable immigration laws. That was the first thing that raised eyebrows as I was not traveling either to or through Ireland.
Then it got more interesting as in the very next line Lufthansa wrote that I was travelling from JFK to KBP and due to the above-mentioned restrictions in Ireland I would not have been allowed to enter the country at KBP and therefore Lufthansa had the right to refuse transportation. Since the ticket was non-refundable I am due only taxes and fees, And then a long list of my options to rebook with a EUR50 bonus.
I honestly am not sure what to think of the response as it simply makes no sense. A) LH did not refuse transportation but simply canceled the flights 10 days before the travel. B). I was not travelling to KBP (they even attached a copy of the ticket with the complete itinerary). I was starting in Ukraine, which is where I live.
C) My destination was the UK which did not and still does not have any entry restrictions. Where did Ireland and JFK come into play is beyond me. One would have to really try to come up with such nonsense.This is not it as Citi has not closed the case but simply asked me to reply, and I am not sure how to find nice words to call out LH on their BS.
I did not mean to complain or anything with this post. I was just amused with the response and wanted to share it for entertainment and as a data point
Anyone with experiencing appealing the reasoning gave by Lufthansa? Any advice on how to proceed from here?
May 29, 2020, 5:47 am
#56
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I had a ticket from KBP to LHR via FRA for 03/26 and back on 03/29. Lufthansa canceled all flights from KBP 10 days before I was due to travel. Since I booked via Expedia I tried calling them to ask for a refund but it was impossible to get through, so after 2 weeks of trying I gave up, called my bank (Citi) and asked if it was OK for me to initiate a chargeback due to it being impossible to contact the merchant. They said that I should go ahead and so I did.
You can debate how the airlines are justifying themselves, but essentially they are showing that the consumer didn't attempt a resolution and that is all the payment processor needs to decline the chargeback.
May 29, 2020, 6:14 am
#57
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,657
If you initiate a chargeback without even communicating with the merchant (LH) and its agent (Expedia) the chargeback can be contested by the merchant. The advice Citi gave was wrong. The chargeback always has to show that you tried your best to resolve the issue with the merchant and they did not perform their end of the contract.
You can debate how the airlines are justifying themselves, but essentially they are showing that the consumer didn't attempt a resolution and that is all the payment processor needs to decline the chargeback.
You can debate how the airlines are justifying themselves, but essentially they are showing that the consumer didn't attempt a resolution and that is all the payment processor needs to decline the chargeback.
May 29, 2020, 6:58 am
#59
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
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If you are disputing a credit card charge you have to provide certain evidence. If the test is not met the credit card system will not do a chargeback. Whether the merchant doesn't have a rainy day fund, or is not refunding as per regulations etc is of little consequence to the chargeback process. Financial institutions go by rules and if the evidence of non-performance is not adequately provided its a clear case of 'computer says no'.
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
May 29, 2020, 6:58 am
#60
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
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Posts: 7,691
If you initiate a chargeback without even communicating with the merchant (LH) and its agent (Expedia) the chargeback can be contested by the merchant. The advice Citi gave was wrong. The chargeback always has to show that you tried your best to resolve the issue with the merchant and they did not perform their end of the contract.
You can debate how the airlines are justifying themselves, but essentially they are showing that the consumer didn't attempt a resolution and that is all the payment processor needs to decline the chargeback.
You can debate how the airlines are justifying themselves, but essentially they are showing that the consumer didn't attempt a resolution and that is all the payment processor needs to decline the chargeback.
But again, there is no requirement to contact the merchant when initiating a chargeback for a service that was not provided, which is why there was no mention in Lufthansa's response of me not trying to resolve the issue with them first. Lufthansa went straight into inventing an alternative reality to impose a travel voucher on me. I mean, not contacting the merchant would have been the easiest and quickest reason to reject the chargeback had it been possible but the airline did not use it.
I
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
Last edited by Andriyko; May 29, 2020 at 7:07 am