Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks
May 29, 2020, 7:09 am
#61
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,657
If you are disputing a credit card charge you have to provide certain evidence. If the test is not met the credit card system will not do a chargeback. Whether the merchant doesn't have a rainy day fund, or is not refunding as per regulations etc is of little consequence to the chargeback process. Financial institutions go by rules and if the evidence of non-performance is not adequately provided its a clear case of 'computer says no'.
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
BTW even in 'normal' times chargeback is rampant in the travel industry. Consumers have different perception of how the performance of the service was done and often initiate chargeback on hotel stays, airline tickets, cruises, tours etc. Travel providers have departments that do nothing else but respond to chargeback requests by credit card issuers.
This website gives a rough overview on how prevalent chargebacks have become: Chargebacks Explained - The Chargeback Company
May 29, 2020, 7:49 am
#62
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
Just put in a chargeback with chase for a LH flight I have been waiting since Mar 3 for a refund on. LH have confirmed the refund is being processed 3 times, but I'm still waiting. LH just cancelled another June itinerary, and since they don't answer their phones, I went right to the chargeback option.
May 30, 2020, 6:55 am
#63
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA, France
Programs: LH HON*****, AF/KL Gold; HHilton Diamond; Marriott Gold; IHG Platinium; Avis PresClub
Posts: 939
Just put in a chargeback with chase for a LH flight I have been waiting since Mar 3 for a refund on. LH have confirmed the refund is being processed 3 times, but I'm still waiting. LH just cancelled another June itinerary, and since they don't answer their phones, I went right to the chargeback option.
Have you read the above comments? Without trying to contact the merchant, your chargeback request will be automatically declined.
May 30, 2020, 7:20 am
#64
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,593
Who says that? Is that based on anything? This is really to do with where you're based, the card issued, consumer law and the individual issuer's practices. In countries with weak consumer laws, like the MS of the EU, there is no possibility to made the card firm liable itself using the process that exists in the UK; S75. This means if your chargeback is declined your only choice is to sue the merchant which again, in many MS, is an absolute disaster.
If you try to email, Tweet & phone LH and they either don't answer or say the refund is "pending" is that proof of contact?
I don't think there is an "automatic decline".
If you try to email, Tweet & phone LH and they either don't answer or say the refund is "pending" is that proof of contact?
I don't think there is an "automatic decline".
May 30, 2020, 1:00 pm
#65
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
They do not answer the phone? You are sure you are dialing the correct number? I phoned LH in the last days several times at different times during the day and never had to wait longer than a minute.
Have you read the above comments? Without trying to contact the merchant, your chargeback request will be automatically declined.
Have you read the above comments? Without trying to contact the merchant, your chargeback request will be automatically declined.
May 30, 2020, 1:57 pm
#66
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: PVG, FRA, SEA, HEL
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 4,783
With the cozy relationships between airlines and card issueing banks (e.g. AMEX) when it comes to buying miles in large bulks -> it's no wonder that Amex is not going against the airlines.
May 31, 2020, 3:12 am
#67
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,593
Consumer laws just have no teeth in many countries.
Jun 5, 2020, 3:55 am
#68
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 640
Hi,
I wanted to share my experience with a chargeback for Lufthansa with Chase.
Their current tactic seems to be to completely ignore the fact that they canceled the flight and blame it on travel restrictions:
"Passenger was unable to fly irrespective of the merchant's willingness to travel."
10.01.2020 Booked First Class Flight KBP-JNB with LH for 16.04.2020
22.03.2020 Checked booking constantly and found out that LX cancelled my inbound flight, both LH and LX at that time already stopped notifying people about cancelled flights because of overwhelmed call centres (scandal in itself) so I have no email but made screenshots of the booking status and also e-ticket with flight status cancelled
22.03.2020 Called LH first and they cancelled the ticket saying a full refund would be no problem but could take a bit longer (legally they are obliged for 7 days).
I only received a short mail saying that “the booking has been cancelled” but not stating any refund or the fact that it was cancelled because the flight has been cancelled by the airline.
06.04.2020 Disputed Charge with Chase (made with Sapphire Reserve Visa Credit) on the basis that the promised refund did not hit my bank account within 14 days although legal requirement is 7 days
23.05.2020 LH denied chargeback on the basis that South Africa closed borders on April 1st and I would not have been able to enter.
It’s quite stunning they use this tactic given that the flight has been cancelled on March 22nd (maybe even earlier) before the travel restrictions where even in place. The flight also never operated (so far to their "merchant willingness to travel").
Would you try and dispute the charge again?
Thanks,
Tokyonson
I wanted to share my experience with a chargeback for Lufthansa with Chase.
Their current tactic seems to be to completely ignore the fact that they canceled the flight and blame it on travel restrictions:
"Passenger was unable to fly irrespective of the merchant's willingness to travel."
10.01.2020 Booked First Class Flight KBP-JNB with LH for 16.04.2020
22.03.2020 Checked booking constantly and found out that LX cancelled my inbound flight, both LH and LX at that time already stopped notifying people about cancelled flights because of overwhelmed call centres (scandal in itself) so I have no email but made screenshots of the booking status and also e-ticket with flight status cancelled
22.03.2020 Called LH first and they cancelled the ticket saying a full refund would be no problem but could take a bit longer (legally they are obliged for 7 days).
I only received a short mail saying that “the booking has been cancelled” but not stating any refund or the fact that it was cancelled because the flight has been cancelled by the airline.
06.04.2020 Disputed Charge with Chase (made with Sapphire Reserve Visa Credit) on the basis that the promised refund did not hit my bank account within 14 days although legal requirement is 7 days
23.05.2020 LH denied chargeback on the basis that South Africa closed borders on April 1st and I would not have been able to enter.
It’s quite stunning they use this tactic given that the flight has been cancelled on March 22nd (maybe even earlier) before the travel restrictions where even in place. The flight also never operated (so far to their "merchant willingness to travel").
Would you try and dispute the charge again?
Thanks,
Tokyonson
Make sure you check the details. They cancelled my booking before travel ban was announced, so they cant argue they have cancelled the flights because of DOCS
If you need more dispute arguments, send me a PM, I have quite a long list of arguments against their dispute
Jun 5, 2020, 6:15 am
#69
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: MUC
Programs: SQ *G, UA *G, BA Gold, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 33
It's been over a week since I had requested for a refund for my cancelled flights with LH. And I'm thinking about filing a chargeback with Amex Germany. What's the procedure? I think it's mentioned somewhere that Amex Germany tend to prevent their cardholders from filing a chargeback against LH, is this true? While I see that LX has rejected the request, has anyone been denied for a chargeback by LH? Thanks!
Jun 5, 2020, 8:10 am
#70
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 640
That's exactly how it is. They both show us the middle finger. Even Visa in their updated policy says they will reject the chargeback in case flight is cancelled due to government restrictions.
I can only think of China and South America where restrictions are in place so airlines cannot fly / only allowed to fly x times / week.
Entire Europe and U.S. travel ban is no gov. restriction on the airlines, since U.S. citiizens can still fly to the U.S. and Europe citizens to Europe. Airlines have only cancelled these rountes due to low demand.
Might have been smarter to still operate the flights, even if the plane is empty, because then no refund would have needed to be paid under EU261 / 2004. U.S. DOT ruling is not clear, they say if there is a gov. restriction --> refund, however, gov. restriction is not defined whether it means person is not allowed to enter the country or the flight is not permitted to operate
Jun 5, 2020, 8:16 am
#71
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 640
It's been over a week since I had requested for a refund for my cancelled flights with LH. And I'm thinking about filing a chargeback with Amex Germany. What's the procedure? I think it's mentioned somewhere that Amex Germany tend to prevent their cardholders from filing a chargeback against LH, is this true? While I see that LX has rejected the request, has anyone been denied for a chargeback by LH? Thanks!
Even if you did, LH would dispute the chargeback ( see previous posts) claiming booking was cancelled due to citizenship of pax + its a non refundable booking + travel credit is offered.
Here are my go to steps to success:
1) send an email to:
[email protected]
including your booking reference, eticket no + pax name
Demand full refund "due to cancelled flight within 7 days til 12 June 2020 under EU261/2004"
include your IBAN + BIC!! Thats important, because under EU261 airlines are required to pay out in cash
put a friend / family member in BCC to have proof that you really sent an email (important, because many airlines claim they never received that claim)
2) file a complaint with the DOT against LH: https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds
More complaints --> more likely that the airline will be heavyly fined
3) after 7 days contact a lawyer, many German flyers have already sued LH with Dr. Boese and already received their refund: https://www.rechteindeutig.de/luftha...klageerhebung/
Jun 9, 2020, 12:32 pm
#72
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 321
An update or data point for anyone who cares:
Booked companion J ticket in November 2019 ARN-FRA-SIN-MEL for 4 through LH.com
Flight canceled by LH on or around April 8 (no email was ever sent to me, and when logging in with PNR, said 'please contact flight center due to a change in itinerary)
Contacted LH April 10 - refund offered through call centre, email sent indicated cancellation, but not who did it/when
May 1st chargeback started with VISA due to no refund. Documentation submitted.
June 8 no response from LH and reversed charges are now permanent.
Booked companion J ticket in November 2019 ARN-FRA-SIN-MEL for 4 through LH.com
Flight canceled by LH on or around April 8 (no email was ever sent to me, and when logging in with PNR, said 'please contact flight center due to a change in itinerary)
Contacted LH April 10 - refund offered through call centre, email sent indicated cancellation, but not who did it/when
May 1st chargeback started with VISA due to no refund. Documentation submitted.
June 8 no response from LH and reversed charges are now permanent.
Jun 9, 2020, 1:19 pm
#73
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: YYZ
Programs: A3&O6 Gold,IC AMB & HH Diamond
Posts: 14,132
An update or data point for anyone who cares:
Booked companion J ticket in November 2019 ARN-FRA-SIN-MEL for 4 through LH.com
Flight canceled by LH on or around April 8 (no email was ever sent to me, and when logging in with PNR, said 'please contact flight center due to a change in itinerary)
Contacted LH April 10 - refund offered through call centre, email sent indicated cancellation, but not who did it/when
May 1st chargeback started with VISA due to no refund. Documentation submitted.
June 8 no response from LH and reversed charges are now permanent.
Booked companion J ticket in November 2019 ARN-FRA-SIN-MEL for 4 through LH.com
Flight canceled by LH on or around April 8 (no email was ever sent to me, and when logging in with PNR, said 'please contact flight center due to a change in itinerary)
Contacted LH April 10 - refund offered through call centre, email sent indicated cancellation, but not who did it/when
May 1st chargeback started with VISA due to no refund. Documentation submitted.
June 8 no response from LH and reversed charges are now permanent.
I am in the same boat. Credit Card reveresed my charges but are now awaiting LH to respond. My flights cancelled sometime in April and the refund process initiated by LH APR23. Email said cancelleation not refund.
Jun 9, 2020, 4:07 pm
#74
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 321
edit: i see above now. They are doing that. My rep ar cc said this would be final as there are strict time periods. I wonder if it depends on which country you are in and they know some will banks and ccs will play ball? Canadian here
Last edited by tbuff; Jun 10, 2020 at 6:43 am
Jun 11, 2020, 2:53 am
#75
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 640
just be patient. Doesn't sound like they are challenging them. Unlike Swiss....
edit: i see above now. They are doing that. My rep ar cc said this would be final as there are strict time periods. I wonder if it depends on which country you are in and they know some will banks and ccs will play ball? Canadian here
edit: i see above now. They are doing that. My rep ar cc said this would be final as there are strict time periods. I wonder if it depends on which country you are in and they know some will banks and ccs will play ball? Canadian here
Meaning even if card owner was wrong but the merchant fails to respond within the given deadline, its his loss.
In case of Mastercard Europe the deadline is 45 days.
But the merchant can even get around this (like in my case)
LH disputed the chargeback, but forgot to attach the dispute documents. Then they had a new deadline (timeframe unknown) to provide the docs.
Once they have done so and disputed the chargeback, I now had 45 days to respond to their dispute.
After submission LH has now another 45 days to respond, if they still dispute the chargeback, then a MC dispute agent will look at the case and decide based on the docs presented by both sides.