Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks

Old Mar 26, 20, 1:55 pm
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Covid19: LH and Credit Card - Disputes/Chargebacks

I'm now in a position where three hotels and two airlines cancelled my reservations and are not willing to refund the value I paid months ago at the time I made the bookings. This is clearly a matter for dispute with the credit card provider (DKB) but I'm unsure of what forms to submit and where to send (hopefully email) them. All their lines have been busy whenever I tried to call them lately, so I thought I'd ask here if anyone has gone through the dispute process (the famous chargeback) with the LH DKB M&M Credit Card before.

Thanks in advance for any input!
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Old Mar 27, 20, 6:01 am
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Hmm. I believe airlines have been allowed to issue vouchers for cancelled flights rather than monetary refunds (otherwise they will probably go bankrupt soon) so there is a high risk that DKB will refuse to process the charge back.

Most hotel chains have also set up a program to allow rebooking or credits for future stays.

I know you would prefer refunds but given the unprecedented circumstances you would not be prepared to accept vouchers?
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Old Mar 27, 20, 6:07 am
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I know you would prefer refunds but given the unprecedented circumstances you would not be prepared to accept vouchers?
Of course cash is preferred. But do we want our hotel industry and airlines go bankrupt ? We may have nowhere to stay and nobody to fly with in the near future.....

The point of booking non refundable fares and prepaid rooms is to get more value for money. Of course this comes with a risk which has now materialized through "force majeure".
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Old Mar 27, 20, 6:28 am
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This is irrelevant for the discussion at hand but the reservations I mentioned were prepaid and refundable.

In most civilized jurisdictions it is not lawful (nor ethical, I would add) to use clients' money without their consent to bail out private companies. If the companies are not viable, the government can decide to either bail them out (with taxpayer money, not just my money) or force them to declare bankruptcy and let me line up with the other creditors to get my share of the remains. They can't just allow these companies to keep operating and returning playmoney in lieu of the cash for undelivered services.

Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I know you would prefer refunds but given the unprecedented circumstances you would not be prepared to accept vouchers?
No. I did not have plans to travel to these destinations later in the year, so I am not willing to accept vouchers that will be useless to me even if none of these companies go bankrupt in the next 12 months. This said, even if I wanted to travel to those destinations later in the year I would not accept to be forcibly exposed to the default risk of these companies without being compensated for it. (In other words, I do not accept their valuation of playmoney vs USD at 1:1.)

Originally Posted by behuman View Post
The point of booking non refundable fares and prepaid rooms is to get more value for money. Of course this comes with a risk which has now materialized through "force majeure".
I think we all agree that this is indeed a case of "force majeure". However, that is (or should be) irrelevant in this case.
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Last edited by mmff; Mar 27, 20 at 6:49 am
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Old Mar 27, 20, 7:10 am
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For the flights you're entitled to a refund, not just voucher, which the European Comission also clarified:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/theme...nger-rights_en
If the hotels cancelled themselves, I'd be pretty sure you're entitled to refunds aswell.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 7:23 am
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Originally Posted by behuman View Post
The point of booking non refundable fares and prepaid rooms is to get more value for money. Of course this comes with a risk which has now materialized through "force majeure".
But the risk is when the person does not/cannot travel. In this case, the hotels and the airlines canceled the bookings so they should issue a refund.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 7:31 am
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Originally Posted by behuman View Post
Of course cash is preferred. But do we want our hotel industry and airlines go bankrupt ? We may have nowhere to stay and nobody to fly with in the near future.....

The point of booking non refundable fares and prepaid rooms is to get more value for money. Of course this comes with a risk which has now materialized through "force majeure".

Airlines and hotels can be bailed out, who will bail the average Joe out?
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Old Mar 27, 20, 8:46 am
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The process is well described at dkb.de

https://www.dkb.de/banking/Service/R...numsaetze.html



You fill out this pdf: https://dok.dkb.de/pdf/rekla_kk.pdf

And email it or upoload it on their secure mailbox.

The ethics of enforcing a refund this way are a different matter.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 8:50 am
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Thanks Oliver, somehow I missed the data on their website.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 12:18 pm
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So has anyone successfully claimed all their flight with their credit card company? The Canadian govt has issued a travel advisory. I have submitted all my flights booked with my credit card and m now waiting. I don't mind rebooking but I cannot get a hold of anyone at LH, A3, AC or TP. Its frustrating.
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Old Mar 27, 20, 12:58 pm
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Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
The ethics of enforcing a refund this way are a different matter.
But what is unethical with wanting one's money back for something that a hotel or an airline cannot provide? Are we expected to gift them the money? On the one hand, we're (rightfully) expected to forfeit our money if we cannot travel due to personal circumstances, and on the other hand we're supposed to let hotels and airlines keep our money if they can't provide us with what we paid for? I think the only ethical thing to do here is for businesses to refund their customers if they can't deliver.

Last edited by Andriyko; Mar 27, 20 at 2:02 pm Reason: Spelling
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Old Mar 27, 20, 10:01 pm
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Originally Posted by djjaguar64 View Post
So has anyone successfully claimed all their flight with their credit card company? The Canadian govt has issued a travel advisory. I have submitted all my flights booked with my credit card and m now waiting. I don't mind rebooking but I cannot get a hold of anyone at LH, A3, AC or TP. Its frustrating.
I don't think the credit card company would ever deny you the chargeback for undelivered services or goods, as this would be a federal law violation in Germany, the USA and in most other (western) jurisdictions. I made a quick search on FT and found two anecdotal success reports using Amex: 1 and 2.
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Last edited by mmff; Mar 27, 20 at 10:31 pm
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Old Mar 31, 20, 7:09 am
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DKB published a FAQ on this topic:

https://www.miles-and-more-kreditkar...p/coronavirus/

Sollte die gebuchte Leistung aufgrund der aktuellen Situation nicht in Anspruch genommen werden können (Stornierung, Verschiebung etc.), so ist zuerst eine Klärung mit dem Reiseveranstalter/Händler durchzuführen. Es besteht kein grundsätzliches Rückbuchungsrecht, wenn die Reise verschoben, der Reisepreis erstattet oder ein Gutschein ausgestellt wird. Sollte keine Einigung mit dem Reiseveranstalter/Händler erzielt werden, prüft der Miles & More Credit Card Service gern die Rückbuchungsmöglichkeiten unter Vorlage der erforderlichen Unterlagen (Buchungsunterlagen, Klärungsversuch mit dem Händler, Gutschriftzusagen etc.) im Interesse des Karteninhabers. Welche konkreten Ansprüche der Karteninhaber hat, ist jedoch stets eine Einzelfallentscheidung.

Es gelten grundsätzlich die Standardbedingungen der Mastercard Regularien. Bislang gibt es keine Sonderregelungen der Kartenorganisationen im Zusammenhang mit der Corona-Pandemie.

Der Reiseveranstalter/Händler hat die Möglichkeit, die Rückbuchung nicht zu akzeptieren. In diesen Fällen erfolgt ein Widerspruch gegen die Rückbuchung mit Unterlagen, welche die Rückbuchung widerlegen (z. B. Geschäfts- und Stornierungsbedingungen des Händlers, die der Karteninhaber bei der Buchung akzeptiert hat). In solchen Fällen findet eine weitere Einzelprüfung des Vorgangs durch den Miles & More Credit Card Service statt, ggf. erfolgt eine Wiederbelastung der Miles & More Credit Card des Karteninhabers.
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Old Mar 31, 20, 9:03 am
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Originally Posted by oliver2002 View Post
Interestingly, the part you highlighted seems to be at odds with their next paragraph:
Es gelten grundsätzlich die Standardbedingungen der Mastercard Regularien. Bislang gibt es keine Sonderregelungen der Kartenorganisationen im Zusammenhang mit der Corona-Pandemie.
According to MasterCard:
One of the benefits of using your MasterCard credit or debit card to make a purchase is that if you don’t receive the goods or services you paid for, you may be able to get your money back, even if the business is no longer trading. If the goods or services you bought with your card, are not as described, damaged, or are never received, you can ask your card issuer to process a refund request.
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Old Apr 1, 20, 12:10 am
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You are referring to a general rule in the T&C of MC whereas the DKB FAQ specifically deals with refund of tickets due to current Covid-19 - what do you think will apply?

Good luck with that charge back!
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