How about tipping for expensive dinners where i'm talking about small group of people eg 3 or 4 and spending 2-3 thousand on a meal? would tipping 17-20% still be normal in the uS?

We can all move to Japan. We don't tip and we get amazing customer service from a high class hotel down to McDonald's.
;)

The largest table I've ever personally waited on that did not have an gratuity applied was around $800, and they tipped 20%, so it's at least done by some.

Quick anecdote. I read somewhere, forget where, that Bill Gates took a friend's family out for dinner to celebrate the friend's son's graduation. Lots of expensive champagne was ordered. The bill was $12,000, and Mr. Gates wrote it off to an even $20K.

I wish I were working that night.

Chris

We actually had a lawsuit against one of my former employers for doing something similar.

According to the labor laws in my state (and others as well), tips can only be shared amongst those with direct face-to-face contact with the customer, and with no one in a supervisory position.

Part of our tip share was going to pay a service bartender in the kitchen (who never sees a customer) as well as a woman who HAD been a manager, but no longer could be one due to getting a DUI. In the state of Kansas, if you get charged with an alcohol-related crime, you can not serve, nor be in charge of anyone who serves, alcohol. So, they created a made up position for her, and she still did all of her managerial duties, just under a different heading. When we found out that the restaurant wasn't paying her and, in fact, she was getting a chunk of our tips, we raised hell and after several internal investigations throughout the company, about a dozen managers throughout the company were fired and they had to pay out a settlement of seven digits plus.

Not sure about the laws in Canada, but if the basis for that story were anywhere in the U.S., some heads would roll.

Chris

Because you HAVEN'T "already paid." You've paid a price the owner has set based on the assumption that you'd be tipping to supplement the sub minimum wage he's permitted by law to pay his employees.

I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this simple concept. Eliminate tipping, require the restaurant owners to pay servers a fair wage, and they'll raise menu prices to cover the increased overhead. Then you'll all be whining about how expensive it is to eat out.

"Because you HAVEN'T "already paid." You've paid a price the owner has set based on the assumption that you'd be tipping to supplement the sub minimum wage he's permitted by law to pay his employees.

I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this simple concept. Eliminate tipping, require the restaurant owners to pay servers a fair wage, and they'll raise menu prices to cover the increased overhead. Then you'll all be whining about how expensive it is to eat out. "

Nonsense. Explain why some restaurants charge, for example, $10 for a meat/potato dinner, and others charge 5 times that or more (ordered from the same suppliers). Or explain why I should tip a percentage of an expensive bottle or glass of wine, when it's the same work to bring it and pour it as the cheap glass/bottle.
I already have pretty much stopped going to restaurants in the US. Hate the nonsense of it costing me through the nose for usually mediocre service and mundane food, plus tax and tip. And don't get me started on the wine markups! It isn't fun anymore, it's just irritating.

Oh, I know I shouldn't get involved in a thread about tipping.

So on that logic it would be acceptable if I dine in a restaurant in LA where the minimum wage is $8/hr and spend $500 over 2 hrs to leave a tip of $16 if I have sole use of a dedicated server as the purpose of tipping is to make up the shortfall between what the employer pays and the minimum wage. That way I am certain that at least for the time period that I required service the server is earning the minimum wage plus whatever the employer pays - or is there some other purpose of tipping that has not been mentioned in your post?

I really hate the fact that a lot of shops put out a tip jar - what service should I be tipping for buying fresh produce?

I hate it also, I wish they would just bring a bill that said, "We expect you to pay this much" and be done with it.

Regarding the capitalist incentive that was referenced, I'm not sure how effective that is if the tips are shared among the staff.

I have been to an Indian restaurant that was, in effect, no bill and all tipping - order what you like, then pay what you like.

Just out of curiosity, I pose this question to the FT masses. If a local restaurant that you hadn't visited before advertised the fact that they didn't allow tipping and paid their staff a living wage, would you be more likely to visit the restaurant?

Or perhaps a better question. If there existed two franchises of the same restaurant, and one worked under the current "system" and one didn't allow tipping. At restaurant #1, a burger costs $10. At restaurant #2, a burger costs $13. Assuming everything else is the same (and they're the same distance from the house, yadda yadda yadda), would you prefer one restaurant over the other?

EDIT: Not trying to be snarky here either. I myself, as a server, think that tipping is stupid too. That said, if I don't make the same amount of money and the restaurant doesn't make the same amount of money, it'll never go away.

Chris

Well, I don't tip 30% so the $13 is overpriced, but if the burger was $11.50, then yes, I'd opt for the place without tipping.

I had an experience at an American restaurant recently where the waiter started asking very detailed questions about where we were from, etc. When we said we were living in Europe he got a deer in headlights look and asked if we had ever lived in the US. I wondered whether he might be worried that he wasn't going to get a tip.

Any Europeans ever experience this? I'm still not sure if I was right or not, but his mood definitely lightened when I said yes, we've lived in the US.

If he is worried, then he shouldn't serve you. I simply don't like the fact that people are so hock on the tips even before giving out the service.

I guess it's cultural difference - but it doesn't make sense to have to tip for something that is 'complimentary' such as airport shuttle.

+1 I will feel more comfortable eating there. For me, going out to eat is to eat the food there, I don't care about service. I got hands and legs that I can fetch the food myself.

I believe that it is ignorance and/or stereotyping (at least in 2012). Add the Québécois to the list of 'non-tipppers', according to some Americans. There are ignorant travellers from every country (Even on this thread, there is at least one from North America who seems to be somehow proud of tipping in the American fashion in Europe)

Just as there are people from North America who travel abroad and don't know the local custom, there are people from Europe who travel to America and don't tip. But since tipping at least something is more common these days in much of Europe, and people are more travelled and better informed, I believe that it tends to be an outdated stereotype.

I also know many people who overtip when in America, either to offset the stereotype, or because they find rounding to 20% easier (and may not understand the tax implication in regards to the total tip)

If any server however somehow indicates concern that I am ignorant, and won't tip him what he feels is the appropriate amount, it will colour my perception and may impact what I do choose to leave. This is very common practice in Walt Disneyworld, for example, with the excuse given that those from the UK (who make up a large percentage of non-American guests) are renowned for not tipping. :rolleyes: There is a 'suggested tip' line on the bill, which servers generally point out with great enthusiasm, or circle. Disney in fact introduced mandatory prepaid tips on many of their dining programs, as well as their Europe based cruises, to offset what they claim are lack of tips from 'foreigners'. Then again, Disney is one of the worst for reinforcing stereotypes and even encouraging their travellers to follow them (Witness Adventures by Disney)