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-   -   I hate tipping, how can we end it? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/diningbuzz/1025173-i-hate-tipping-how-can-we-end.html)

Cassie55 Jul 30, 2013 2:09 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21176798)
I always thought that porters charged a set fee rather than working for tips, i.e., you should negotiate a price before handing over your bags if you aren't willing to accept whatever the going rate is.



Running after a customer is unlikely, but I have seen servers verbally demand a higher tip, sometimes quite abusively, several times the US, everywhere from small towns to large cities.

It might be unlikely but it happened. She only chased me to the door (not down the road) but asked me if I was aware that the accepted tip amount was now 20% not 15.

Dadaluma83 Jul 30, 2013 9:33 am

This whole tipping thing is ridiculous. Which is why I am a flat tipper. I don't believe in paying a different amount based on service level. Why? If you go to an electronics store and the employees are super helpful, knowledgeable, and you find the perfect product do you pay extra for your satisfaction? Likewise if you go to an electronics store and there is no help to be found, and the few employees you do find are completely clueless and you have a miserable experience do you pay less?

No, in both cases you pay the exact same amount. Why should a restaurant be any different?

In the case of a great experience you will give that store your repeat business, recommend them to your friends, and give positive online reviews. In the case of a negative experience you either complain to the manager, or don't go back. Restaurants should be exactly the same because if you leave a very poor tip to a server they will just think you are a cheap jerk. The only way to address poor service is to take it up with a manager.

My tipping system I look at the pre tax total, take 20% of that, then round down to the nearest dollar. Should be good enough for a 15 - 18% tip in most cases, especially when dining by myself or one other person. I just consider it an unbundled service charge where I am directly paying the employee for their labor.

nkedel Jul 30, 2013 10:48 am


Originally Posted by Dadaluma83 (Post 21182892)
In the case of a great experience you will give that store your repeat business, recommend them to your friends, and give positive online reviews. In the case of a negative experience you either complain to the manager, or don't go back.

OTOH, you also have the option of taking your business elsewhere before purchasing something. If the electronics store is useless, you've got the option of driving on to the next one without giving them a cent (or just ordering online.)

In the case of restaurants, the consumer is committing to pay (or take the issue up with the manager why they shouldn't have to) by ordering, often before they know how good/bad the service will be.

(Could be worse; look at hotels - given the propensity for prepayment and non-refundable reservations, people often are committing to pay before they even see the physical condition of the property, and given online mapping errors, sometimes without knowing the actual location!)

cbn42 Jul 30, 2013 11:02 am


Originally Posted by Cassie55 (Post 21181113)
It might be unlikely but it happened. She only chased me to the door (not down the road) but asked me if I was aware that the accepted tip amount was now 20% not 15.

I would have apologized and asked for the receipt back so I could change it. I would then change it to 0% and leave.

Then of course I would post this incident on Yelp.

seanthepilot Jul 31, 2013 2:37 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21181005)
And presumably not reporting it to the IRS, unlike most professionals.

YES, you have highlighted the problem. How are all the servers handling the tax man. This is the crux of the issue.

Don't get on my case, I am trying to change it.
I am posting this information. Information that is usually hidden from the public. It's like a 'code of secrecy'.

I would hope that by publicizing the information, we can
*inform people about how ridiculous amounts of money are being thrown around here.
*break stereotypes (such as, highlighting how much of a HUGE income stream it is)
*modify behaviour (really, if we're overtipping, we're overpaying)
*provide an incentive for governments to crack down on the tax free income (I did not create the system; Earning this INSANELY HUGE INCOME WITHOUT TAX is unfair to all other professions; Servers should pay tax on all their income, just as everyone else).

crabbing Jul 31, 2013 4:10 am


Originally Posted by WillCAD (Post 21175912)
The 18% mandatory large-party tip, however, cause a lot of people to misinterpret and believe that 18%, not 15%, was the standard percentage for ALL tips. Hence, 18% became known as the standard.

But 18% is an odd number...

the problem with this logic is that the "customary" 18% large-party "gratuity" was around for many years. but you never had to calculate it; the restaurant always included it on the bill already (otherwise, if it's not on the bill, no one would pay it). by the way, 18% was common but not universal. many places used 15%.

the proletarian in me suspects that tip inflation is correlated to some kind of legalized wage theft. i can easily imagine a rule that allows a restaurant to pay a lower hourly wage if it claims that its servers get more tips. i emphasize that this is purely my imagination. but it makes sense to me because i've seen so many restaurants themselves endorse tip inflation, which i would otherwise expect to drive away customers. why would a restaurant promote something that superficially might hurt its sales, unless there was an unseen economic advantage?

Showbizguru Jul 31, 2013 5:33 am

I was in a high-end restaurant in the Caribbean earlier this year where they included a 10% service charge on the bill " designed for entire staff.Tipping to servers is discretionary. "

I called the owner/manager over and told him in a loud voice he was taking the piss and should either pay the 10% service charge to all his staff or pay them proper wages.

On principle I only ever leave a tip for wait staff if they've been good at their job - if they're rude, ignorant or just lazy I call the manager and explain exactly why I'm not leaving a tip.

I also ALWAYS hand the tip, in cash, directly and discreetly to the server to make sure if goes directly to them.

I never, ever let any restaurant staff treat me or my guests with anything other than politeness or common decency which is how I always treat the staff.

Otherwise, I push back my chair and lead everyone out of the door making sure we make quite a scene. Restaurants always hate that.You'd be amazed how often a previously snooty manager comes scuttling over doing a great impression of Uriah Heep.

Never let the tail wag the dog.

CarolynUK Jul 31, 2013 6:31 am

I find the US tipping culture quite bizarre

As an example take this scenario....

My husband, daughter and I ate dinner in a resort hotel in Colorado. Two courses each for the adults three for daughter, and a bottle of wine. The bill came to a little over $400 We were at the table for less than an hour, and the table could have been turned over three or more times during the evening.

My husband rounded the bill up to $500 as the service had been good ( but not exceptional), and our server looked quite upset at what he was given.

We also ate at an Applebee's where the bill was just under $100, and we left the server a $20 tip... They did just as much for us as the guy in the swanky hotel but she seemed delighted at her $20, while he was upset with around $90.

Take the resort hotel waiter say he got $100 in tips from each party he served - at a minimum each of his tables would give him $300/ night, and he was looking after 6 tables - a minimum of $1800 a night.....

Multiply that by a 5 day working week gives him tips of $9000 a week, and multiply that by a 48 week working year and the waiter gets $432,000 a year - just in tips for working a dinner service..... Add in lunchtimes and it could be a whole lot more.....

Just one word - WHY??? He is no more efficient than the Applebee's waitress who would get less than half of that if she was lucky and worked her socks off... And what would a teacher, or a soldier, or a nurse earn in comparison?

Thalassa Jul 31, 2013 7:22 am


Originally Posted by CarolynUK (Post 21188950)
I find the US tipping culture quite bizarre

As an example take this scenario....

My husband, daughter and I ate dinner in a resort hotel in Colorado. Two courses each for the adults three for daughter, and a bottle of wine. The bill came to a little over $400 We were at the table for less than an hour, and the table could have been turned over three or more times during the evening.

My husband rounded the bill up to $500 as the service had been good ( but not exceptional), and our server looked quite upset at what he was given.

We also ate at an Applebee's where the bill was just under $100, and we left the server a $20 tip... They did just as much for us as the guy in the swanky hotel but she seemed delighted at her $20, while he was upset with around $90.

Take the resort hotel waiter say he got $100 in tips from each party he served - at a minimum each of his tables would give him $300/ night, and he was looking after 6 tables - a minimum of $1800 a night.....

Multiply that by a 5 day working week gives him tips of $9000 a week, and multiply that by a 48 week working year and the waiter gets $432,000 a year - just in tips for working a dinner service..... Add in lunchtimes and it could be a whole lot more.....

Just one word - WHY??? He is no more efficient than the Applebee's waitress who would get less than half of that if she was lucky and worked her socks off... And what would a teacher, or a soldier, or a nurse earn in comparison?

While I agree with your overall point and keep asking myself the same question, your math is a bit disingenious for a couple of reasons:

1) The waiter at the resort most likely shares the tip with other staff, making his personal cut smaller. The same might apply at Applebee's, but there are less support staff sharing the tip.

2) Six tables with three parties per table per night sounds very busy. It is highly unlikely that the restaurant does quite so well year around.

But assuming the waiter only makes one quarter of what you assume - that is still over 100 grand a year. I cannot imagine very many other jobs without any formal qualifications required (AFAIK) where you can make nearly as much money.

And the money angle aside, I keep wondering what is the reason for the expected (or, in many cases, mandated) tip amount growing from 15% to 20% or even higher. The price of restaurant meals has gone up with inflation, so why is serving the food these days 30% more valuable than it has traditionally been?

Cheers,
T.

Kettering Northants QC Jul 31, 2013 7:29 am


Originally Posted by CarolynUK (Post 21188950)
I find the US tipping culture quite bizarre

As an example take this scenario....

My husband, daughter and I ate dinner in a resort hotel in Colorado. Two courses each for the adults three for daughter, and a bottle of wine. The bill came to a little over $400 We were at the table for less than an hour, and the table could have been turned over three or more times during the evening.

My husband rounded the bill up to $500 as the service had been good ( but not exceptional), and our server looked quite upset at what he was given.

We also ate at an Applebee's where the bill was just under $100, and we left the server a $20 tip... They did just as much for us as the guy in the swanky hotel but she seemed delighted at her $20, while he was upset with around $90.

Take the resort hotel waiter say he got $100 in tips from each party he served - at a minimum each of his tables would give him $300/ night, and he was looking after 6 tables - a minimum of $1800 a night.....

Multiply that by a 5 day working week gives him tips of $9000 a week, and multiply that by a 48 week working year and the waiter gets $432,000 a year - just in tips for working a dinner service..... Add in lunchtimes and it could be a whole lot more.....

Just one word - WHY??? He is no more efficient than the Applebee's waitress who would get less than half of that if she was lucky and worked her socks off... And what would a teacher, or a soldier, or a nurse earn in comparison?

In a sane world the fact that you paid $400 pre tip for an small meal and a bottle of wine should be enough to guarantee good service.

Even if we assume that your figures are way off and he serves half that number of tables and because of bill size he actually only averages half the tip you quote per table that would still mean he was turning over 100k in tips.

There is no justification for tipping anything other a flat sum tip for wine in a restaurant IMO - why should you pay 15,18,20 % whatever whether it's a £20 bottle of plonk or a £500 bottle of vintage claret - the work is pretty much identical - if the restaurant owner wants to reward staff for selling the expensive wine they can do that from the huge profit margin already on the wine (3-4x retail seems typical) but don't expect me to pay the commission with a huge tip.

cbn42 Jul 31, 2013 3:22 pm


Originally Posted by Showbizguru (Post 21188708)
I also ALWAYS hand the tip, in cash, directly and discreetly to the server to make sure if goes directly to them.

You do realize that you are promoting tax evasion by doing this? You are also depriving other support staff, like cooks and dishwashers, of their mandated share of the tip.

jackal Jul 31, 2013 5:07 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21192208)
You do realize that you are promoting tax evasion by doing this? You are also depriving other support staff, like cooks and dishwashers, of their mandated share of the tip.

It's also very odd. I've never seen anyone do this, and I would feel awkward and uncomfortable doing this to a restaurant server.


Originally Posted by CarolynUK (Post 21188950)
I find the US tipping culture quite bizarre

As an example take this scenario....

My husband, daughter and I ate dinner in a resort hotel in Colorado. Two courses each for the adults three for daughter, and a bottle of wine. The bill came to a little over $400 We were at the table for less than an hour, and the table could have been turned over three or more times during the evening.

My husband rounded the bill up to $500 as the service had been good ( but not exceptional), and our server looked quite upset at what he was given.

I'm having difficulty imagining why a server would be upset over a 22% (or whatever it came out to) tip. Absolutely no reason anywhere in the U.S. for that to happen, even in NYC (where 20-25% seems to be more the normal range). Perhaps he was upset over something else or you misread his facial expression?

FWIW, I'm beginning to change my perspective on tipping. I recently took a flightseeing tour in Kodiak, Alaska and found it stressful to try to figure out the tipping etiquette for our excellent pilot--something I didn't even think about until after we'd landed (too late to try to Google it or ask somewhere). I now understand the stress that foreigners feel in the U.S. when trying to deal with the myriad places that seem to expect tips.

kipper Jul 31, 2013 7:05 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21192208)
You do realize that you are promoting tax evasion by doing this? You are also depriving other support staff, like cooks and dishwashers, of their mandated share of the tip.

You're assuming that the server won't report the tip.

cbn42 Jul 31, 2013 7:49 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21192208)
You do realize that you are promoting tax evasion by doing this? You are also depriving other support staff, like cooks and dishwashers, of their mandated share of the tip.


Originally Posted by kipper (Post 21193264)
You're assuming that the server won't report the tip.

In most cases that is an excellent assumption.

The IRS claims that cash tips are underreported by 84%.

Fredd Jul 31, 2013 7:53 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 21193463)
In most cases that is an excellent assumption.

The IRS claims that cash tips are underreported by 84%.

OT perhaps but I'm well past accepting the IRS as a font of objective information. :p


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