Now, mind you, I'm a big proponent of reigning in the out of control tipping culture. In Canada, it's the biggest tax evasion scam imaginable.

And, on the surface, a water/waitress' job does seem that simple. You're quite right, anyone can be a good waiter on a fair weather day.

But it's when anything goes wrong, when a good server will insulate the guest from it all. It is not the guests concern if there are any problems/hiccups. But it's a good waiter that can ensure the best customer experience dispite any unforseen variables. It's when the sh*t hits the fan, and the customer still leaves and shakes your hand when the boss realizes the difference of having an experienced serving staff. It's a job that is not for everyone.

But I still question the need to over-compensate for the boss not paying sufficient wages by expecting excessive tips for very little work.

I agree, it certainly sorts the wheat from the chaff. But still part of the job I believe. In the same way I expect a pilot to leave me blissfully unaware of the fact we had a 'close shave', I expect the server to leave me unaware that the first time the kitchen plated my food they added rice instead of fries. They pick up the fault and solve it without me noticing. The only time I don't want to be completely isolated from a mistake is when it takes extra time to correct (eg the steak was cooked well instead of medium, so my food is going to take x mintues longer) Then, by all means, apologize, inform me that there was a mistake in the kitchen, it has been rectified, and my meal will be out in a few mintues.

I've been a long time lurker but decided to get my first post in a subject near and dear to my heart!

I spent all of college as a server and a bar tender for a very high end restaurant. The commenter above is right that teenagers waiting tables at a Steak and Shake is easy. But to be a high end server at a high end restaurant you have to be educated around food and often wine. Our staff often had to study outside of work to understand certain food processes and we also had to study and taste a wine menu of almost 1000 bottles. I encourage everyone to wait tables at some point in their lives, I think it teaches a lot of important things. If the OP had ever served, I promise he would not think tipping is absurd.

I spent 20 years as a server, & made boatloads of tax free cash doing it.

It's a ridiculous tradition that has gotten way out of hand, & overly rewards those at the cost of the consumer.

Do you realize how much we're talking about? It's a baffling sum... just because my pie came out on time?

I wonder what consumers would do with that extra 15% of the combined restaurant tabs over one year. The extra spending power would be quite a boost to any economy.

And, having met you and knowing you're a really nice guy, I hope the statute of limitations has expired.

I'm hazy on the math part. In many places I've visited outside North America there's a service charge, service compris, coperto, or whatever clearly tacked on (it could also be hidden). If, say, North American restaurants (or governments) abolish tipping and "pay employees a decent salary," as the argument goes, How do I, the diner, wind up with that extra 15%?

We need rules. For the record it never more than 10 percent. Never tip in vegas as other will do it for you. never tip on booze unless you think you can get laid. more tipping rules would be good. My father said never tip more than 4 bucks an hour. 3 tables an hour that an extra 12 pretty good

The amount a person gets paid for the job is a matter to be decided between the employer and the worker, it is not the responsibility of a customer to compensate the worker for performing their job role.

A customer agrees to purchase goods &/or services from a supplier, for an agreed price, he is not a party to, or has any interest in the arrangements the supplier has with its employees, and has no responsibility to 'top up' the workers earnings.

We have been told, by several people above, how simple the server's task is, so why should the customer be expected to pay an, often compulsory, and in many cases extortionate additional fee for someone who is just doing their job?

Does it really matter if your $10 lunch which is $11.50 after tip or your $11.50 a/i of tip lunch is broken out either way? Assuming the site jacks up the prices by the typical tip amount, the same thing is being paid for the meal. However the onus in the latter is for mgt to pay the help, not the customers

IMO It doesn't make any difference financially. That's why I'm confused about the idea that eliminating tipping would provide consumers with an extra 15% of spending power.

I think its a cultural thing and as someone from outside the US I believe its makes a difference in terms of KNOWING what you will have to pay at the end of the meal/service.

Going on trips to America as a student, I always found it frustrating that you would be expected to tip the same as the accountant who has just popped out for lunch. Or at a bar when you seen some person tip $10 for a drink for no apparent reason. it can be intimidating.

Why would that be frustrating? The accountant tips 15% for average service, you tip 15% for average service. It's based on the service you receive, not the financial standing of the person who is paying. It should make no difference to the server whether he helps those on expense accounts or a non-stop series of poor students. As long as he provides good service, he should end up with the same check at the end of the day.

If it's really that confusing, just stick with 15%. Keep that one number in your head. A phenomenal server might question herself why you didn't perceive her to be going above and beyond most other servers, but she won't be angry that you didn't tip her more. 15% is not a hard number to keep in your head and is indeed less confusing than it is for Americans told to "just round up" in other countries--round up to what? 9 gets rounded to 10? 18 gets rounded to 20? 15 gets rounded to 20, too, or only 16? 47 goes to 48 or 50? 61 to 62 or 70?

There's a lot of truth to that IMHO, although I understand Lounge Expert's concern. We're going to be visiting several countries over the next few weeks, and will refer to the useful tipping thread.

Reading that thread, more than once citizens of a given country argue amongst themselves over what is or isn't appropriate within their land. In some countries it's very cut-and-dried but not so much with others.

Perhaps this is as OT as debating the custom of tipping is in that informational thread, but I do think it's good advice just to settle on 15% in the U.S. or Canada for anybody feeling unsure or even intimidated.

I went to my local last night and had the surley server who we try to avoid if we can (yup, he is that bad and yup I have told the owner). I decided on a % point off the tip (starting at 15) for everything he screwed up. He got 8% in the end. I quite like my new method.

To keep things safer, I will word my examples as those that 'my friend' told me .

On a good day when 'my friend' worked they would have sales in the $3000 - 4000 range (average 20 pax per seating, 4 seatings per day, $44 per cover) This wouldn't include tours or extra seatings during the busiest days.

At 80 covers per shift, 'my friend' 's sales would be 3,520 (+tax). 15% of this would be $528. With an average of 22 shifts per month, that would add up to over $11,000 per month. Add the wage of $14 that my friend got... and even though they only worked a few months of the year (the big money dried up after 4 months anyway) the amount of TAX FREE CASH that 'my friend' made was unbelievable.

During other periods this same friend worked at the chocolate buffet, where, with 12 tables, and unlimited coffee and deserts, the customer turnover was quick. At an average of $2 tip per table, this server would easily pull in $200 per shift in tips... not including the occasional $50 and $100 tip that came their way.

You get the idea.

Now imagine adding up all the restaurant checks on one night, in one major city in North America... and adding 15%. Do you realize how much we're talking about. Now multiply that by 365 and add all the cities together.

The bottom line is that there is NO WAY that even if the employer pays a fair wage that it would even come close to the insane amount of money that 15% of the combined average check would add up to.

So, suppose that by elliminating tipping, the employer overpays each server $3000 or $4000 per month and incorporates it into the cost ofthe meal. It still pales in comparison to the amount that we're giving now....$2 $5, $15 dollars at a time.

The difference in what you're paying now, and what you'd pay just passing on a reasonable wage is tremendous.

The tax scam is another story completely... and may be unique to my country.

You obviously have a very prosperous friend there.

The numbers you describe are most interesting. I gather your main argument is that wages that would otherwise be taxed for the theoretical benefit of all are disappearing into the underground economy. That makes sense. As you probably know, a similar phenomenon occurred for such services as home repairs when the GST was introduced in Canada, a sort of Laffer-Curve effect.

I'm also thinking about the costs to the consumer as you describe it. My "gut" feeling about restaurant meals (no pun intended) is that dining out in other somewhat similarly developed countries in Europe and Australia is often more expensive than in the U.S. Actually, hosting a couple of recent meals in B.C. for family members I was shocked anew by the costs, even though Canada retains a tipping culture similar to the that in the U.S. Still, I realize that all this is only anecdotal and involves a lot of comparing apples and oranges as well. There are a lot of differences in taxes and overhead in different countries, and no, I likewise won't count the hamburger I ate in the LHR Hilton a few minutes ago that cost me 16 pounds.

If anybody can prove my taxes will go down if tipping is eliminated, I'll definitely reconsider my own modestly pro-tipping position.