Asked to lower shade
Nov 21, 2019, 8:12 am
#106
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Plum Nelly
Programs: Marriott Bonvoy, Delta Sky Miles, and S&H Green Stamps
Posts: 636
You can look at Greenland on Google Earth if you really need to. When a FA tells you to do something, you do it. If I was the FA I would have just reached over you and shut it myself. Newsflash: buying a ticket doesn’t entitle you to any control whatsoever over the aircraft equipment, including the window shade. You are free to open it and close it until the flight crew instructs you to do otherwise.
You're right. I think I'll visit Greenland between my first and second cup of coffee this AM.
Nov 21, 2019, 8:13 am
#107
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
You can look at Greenland on Google Earth if you really need to. When a FA tells you to do something, you do it. If I was the FA I would have just reached over you and shut it myself. Newsflash: buying a ticket doesn’t entitle you to any control whatsoever over the aircraft equipment, including the window shade. You are free to open it and close it until the flight crew instructs you to do otherwise.
There is all sorts of aircraft equipment you control...
You are allowed to control your IFE.
You are allowed to control your seat. And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your seat and you should comply.
You are allowed to use the bathroom and lock the bathroom door. And in the name of safety, a FA could say you cannot use it and you should comply.
You are allowed to lower your tray table. And in the name of safety, a FA could raise it and you should comply.
And when you are at the window you are allowed to raise or lower the shade.And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your window shade and you should comply.
The idea a FA could order you to shut your window shade is preposterous. (The same way if the FA told you to turn off a movie on the IFE because someone else was offended, that would be ridiculous.)
And you will note from the OP's story, the FA did not try to even begin to "order" them to shut it as they know they have zero power to do so.
Nov 21, 2019, 8:25 am
#109
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 61
Regardless, the passenger refused to comply with all crew member instructions, a violation of FAA rules (they literally announce this at the beginning of every flight).
Therefore, the passenger invited confrontation by not complying with the crew member instructions.
A passenger does not get to decide what is an erroneous crew member instruction and what is a legitimate crew member instruction while in the air. A passenger may complain through the proper channels upon landing and deplaning. The only logical exception to this rule would be a crew member asking a passenger to do something that is clearly a violation of law or statute.
Nov 21, 2019, 8:36 am
#110
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
Correct. However, you cannot assume the reasoning the passenger complained. It could have been for a legitimate reason, such as the sun shining in his eyes; it could have not been for a legitimate reason.
Regardless, the passenger refused to comply with all crew member instructions, a violation of FAA rules (they literally announce this at the beginning of every flight).
Therefore, the passenger invited confrontation by not complying with the crew member instructions.
A passenger does not get to decide what is an erroneous crew member instruction and what is a legitimate crew member instruction while in the air. A passenger may complain through the proper channels upon landing and deplaning. The only logical exception to this rule would be a crew member asking a passenger to do something that is clearly a violation of law or statute.
Regardless, the passenger refused to comply with all crew member instructions, a violation of FAA rules (they literally announce this at the beginning of every flight).
Therefore, the passenger invited confrontation by not complying with the crew member instructions.
A passenger does not get to decide what is an erroneous crew member instruction and what is a legitimate crew member instruction while in the air. A passenger may complain through the proper channels upon landing and deplaning. The only logical exception to this rule would be a crew member asking a passenger to do something that is clearly a violation of law or statute.
The FA knew they had no power to demand they close the shade. and thus asked OP to lower the shade. Did not ORDER, ASKED. And OP was well within their rights to say no.
Nov 21, 2019, 8:59 am
#111
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 61
Of course you can refuse to follow any flight crew request that is not valid. Yes, you are betting it will be determined later it is not valid. If a FA tells you to switch seats because a family wants to sit next to each other, you can say no. Posters above have given even more great reasons to want the window shade up. And the preference of one passenger does not supersede the preference/rights of another passenger.
The FA knew they had no power to demand they close the shade. and thus asked OP to lower the shade. Did not ORDER, ASKED. And OP was well within their rights to say no.
The FA knew they had no power to demand they close the shade. and thus asked OP to lower the shade. Did not ORDER, ASKED. And OP was well within their rights to say no.
No one argued that the FA should not have asked the OP to "confront another passenger" (assuming that did actually happen verbatim). Could the FA have simply not asked the OP to lower the shade? Yes, the FA could have done that and ignored the other passenger's request. But FA's have a difficult job tending to numerous passengers with numerous wants/needs. We don't know the validity of the other passenger's request; it is only speculation that it was erroneous.
I am only stating all of this to point out the fact that we (us, everyone, humans) always assume the other person is wrong: in this case the FA and the other passenger. A little less "me" and a little more "us" goes a long way in this world, from all parties involved.
Nov 21, 2019, 9:34 am
#112
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: DEN
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 583
Lower it if you will (inflight) but I will never understand people who lower or keep lowered those shades on take-off and landing (especially landing). Don't you want to SEE your proximity to the ground as you are descending as well as be "prepared" for that hard-slam dunk (or not) when you actually land ? Good grief, to be moving at hundreds of miles per hour in a metal tube with no perception of this is maddening to me.
Nov 21, 2019, 9:44 am
#113
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
I don't disagree with your argument(s) as a general point. I am only saying you don't know the reason the shade was asked to be lowered. You are making an assumption that it was a ridiculous request by another passenger without any evidence to support it.
No one argued that the FA should not have asked the OP to "confront another passenger" (assuming that did actually happen verbatim). Could the FA have simply not asked the OP to lower the shade? Yes, the FA could have done that and ignored the other passenger's request. But FA's have a difficult job tending to numerous passengers with numerous wants/needs. We don't know the validity of the other passenger's request; it is only speculation that it was erroneous.
I am only stating all of this to point out the fact that we (us, everyone, humans) always assume the other person is wrong: in this case the FA and the other passenger. A little less "me" and a little more "us" goes a long way in this world, from all parties involved.
No one argued that the FA should not have asked the OP to "confront another passenger" (assuming that did actually happen verbatim). Could the FA have simply not asked the OP to lower the shade? Yes, the FA could have done that and ignored the other passenger's request. But FA's have a difficult job tending to numerous passengers with numerous wants/needs. We don't know the validity of the other passenger's request; it is only speculation that it was erroneous.
I am only stating all of this to point out the fact that we (us, everyone, humans) always assume the other person is wrong: in this case the FA and the other passenger. A little less "me" and a little more "us" goes a long way in this world, from all parties involved.
I assume the request was for comfort, as I cannot think of any other reason to close a shade. Thus, it is a request, not a requirement.
FA was not wrong to ask and OP was not wrong to say no.
To your point, just because you can do something (leave the shade open) does not mean you should do something. Being courteous of others is always a winner.
Nov 21, 2019, 9:46 am
#114
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 19,508
If I'm ever asked to lower my window shade more than that, I'll say that I feel claustrophobic in enclosed spaces, and for "emotional support" reasons, I need to be able to look out the window.
If other people routinely bring pets onto aircraft and pretend they are "emotional support" animals, I should be able to leave my window shade partly up for "emotional support" reasons, too.
If other people routinely bring pets onto aircraft and pretend they are "emotional support" animals, I should be able to leave my window shade partly up for "emotional support" reasons, too.
Whipped cream and a cherry on top if the doc asked for nearby window shades to be raised so s/he could have enough light to ‘operate’.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:00 am
#115
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,045
Of course you can refuse to follow any flight crew request that is not valid. Yes, you are betting it will be determined later it is not valid. If a FA tells you to switch seats because a family wants to sit next to each other, you can say no. Posters above have given even more great reasons to want the window shade up. And the preference of one passenger does not supersede the preference/rights of another passenger.
The FA knew they had no power to demand they close the shade. and thus asked OP to lower the shade. Did not ORDER, ASKED. And OP was well within their rights to say no.
The FA knew they had no power to demand they close the shade. and thus asked OP to lower the shade. Did not ORDER, ASKED. And OP was well within their rights to say no.
In this case no order was given, thus no application to this situation.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:03 am
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,045
While it varies by airline, your statement about the window shade. by and large, is simply incorrect.
There is all sorts of aircraft equipment you control...
You are allowed to control your IFE.
You are allowed to control your seat. And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your seat and you should comply.
You are allowed to use the bathroom and lock the bathroom door. And in the name of safety, a FA could say you cannot use it and you should comply.
You are allowed to lower your tray table. And in the name of safety, a FA could raise it and you should comply.
And when you are at the window you are allowed to raise or lower the shade.And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your window shade and you should comply.
The idea a FA could order you to shut your window shade is preposterous. (The same way if the FA told you to turn off a movie on the IFE because someone else was offended, that would be ridiculous.)
And you will note from the OP's story, the FA did not try to even begin to "order" them to shut it as they know they have zero power to do so.
There is all sorts of aircraft equipment you control...
You are allowed to control your IFE.
You are allowed to control your seat. And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your seat and you should comply.
You are allowed to use the bathroom and lock the bathroom door. And in the name of safety, a FA could say you cannot use it and you should comply.
You are allowed to lower your tray table. And in the name of safety, a FA could raise it and you should comply.
And when you are at the window you are allowed to raise or lower the shade.And in the name of safety, a FA could tell you to raise your window shade and you should comply.
The idea a FA could order you to shut your window shade is preposterous. (The same way if the FA told you to turn off a movie on the IFE because someone else was offended, that would be ridiculous.)
And you will note from the OP's story, the FA did not try to even begin to "order" them to shut it as they know they have zero power to do so.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:07 am
#117
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
Programs: DL DM, Former AA EXP now AY Plat, AC 75K, NW Plat, Former CO Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 27,045
Courts have upheld FAA ability to go after people failing to follow any crew instructions. Why? Public safety. The air is not a place that's safe for arguements.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:10 am
#118
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
No headline would be "Passenger fails to follow crew instructions. Now face jail time for failing to close shade."
Courts have upheld FAA ability to go after people failing to follow any crew instructions. Why? Public safety. The air is not a place that's safe for arguements.
Courts have upheld FAA ability to go after people failing to follow any crew instructions. Why? Public safety. The air is not a place that's safe for arguements.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:12 am
#119
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Antonio
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Goes back to my comment on flying private. If the majority of the cabin is wanting light, let there be light. If they want darkness, let there be darkness. My whole point was that on non-private transportation one passenger shouldn't control the outcome for everyone.
Nov 21, 2019, 10:16 am
#120
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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If they refuse, and the FA insists yes there will be a problem. Maybe take an Aviation Law class or read up on some of the precedent forming court cases. Literally failing to follow an order for any reason can result in FAA going after you. There's a reason the announcement they make says failing to comply with all (not some, or only those you feel should be) crew member instructions, lighted signs and posted placards.