Documentation problem, family of 4 Involuntarily Denied Boarding
Jan 3, 2017, 11:05 am
#151
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Every time I've transited or needed a transit visa or anything of that sort I've brought along proof of onward travel. Transiting through PEK with an overnight layover, on two separate reservations, with two different airlines/affiliations, I had no issues boarding or getting a transit visa to leave the terminal. I don't see why having proof of onward travel (i.e., making a connection and not leaving the terminal, not having to clear customs) wouldn't have helped here. Shame on AF.
Jan 3, 2017, 11:16 am
#152
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OP had proof of onward travel for transit which should've been sufficient for AF to allow boarding.
Saying they needed documentation to enter South Africa would be like saying you need appropriate visas for transiting any other country in the world. Do some of you also expect pax to get a China visa to enter the country when they are connecting through PVG to another country?
AF botched this one up good, and the OP deserves compensation for any monetary damages.
Saying they needed documentation to enter South Africa would be like saying you need appropriate visas for transiting any other country in the world. Do some of you also expect pax to get a China visa to enter the country when they are connecting through PVG to another country?
AF botched this one up good, and the OP deserves compensation for any monetary damages.
However the law in China allows this specifically even on different tickets under the 72/144hr visa.
Jan 3, 2017, 11:18 am
#153
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What exactly is a transit passenger? One definition I found on Google confirms what I've always known to be the definition: "A transit passenger is a passenger who stops over for no more than 24 hours at a midpoint between the departure and destination points and then continues on his or her journey, whether with the same airline or a different one." Based on this, I'd say we met all the conditions to be considered in transit.
As to your quote above, this is of course correct, but you should note (as others have pointed out) that this is in the context of one ticket. What happens on another airline ticket outside the first contract is a different story. The reference to 'different airline' assumes one ticket (or a conjunction ticket).
Jan 3, 2017, 11:27 am
#154
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The discussion has wandered just a tad. As we sit (or stand) today, we still do not know how AF treated OP's ticketing situation or exactly why AF required the birth certificates (and why the electronic versions on OP's laptop were insufficient). But, it is clear under EC 261/2004, that the operating carrier, in this case AF, must have "reasonable grounds" (see quoted section from the Regulation below).
OP and family were in transit at JNB despite the fact that they were transferring between tickets and notwithstanding IATA's definition of "transit" which does nothing more than allocate the risk of a misconnect between its member carriers.
On the other hand, presuming that the gate agent and supervisor have a "reasonable ground" to believe that the children's birth certificates will be required at JNB (not that the children will enter, simply that the birth certificates will be required), EC 261/2004 compensation will not be due.
For all the back-and-forth here, OP loses nothing by filing a claim for EUR 600 per passenger, a total of EUR 2,400. At a minimum, AF will respond with its case for having denied boarding or it may acquiesce and pay or offer a settlement of some kind. That is the only way to even learn the basic facts of why AF denied boarding.
While I doubt that there is a case against AF, I would not presuppose an answer in this situation.
denied boarding means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight, although they have presented themselves for boarding under the conditions laid down in Article 3(2), except where there are reasonable grounds to deny them boarding, such as reasons of health, safety or security, or inadequate travel documentation.
OP ought to drop the DL vs. AF vs. VS argument and the assertion that all cannot be correct. That argument is baseless and will not get him anywhere with AF or in a later argument should he pursue a case against AF. The sole question in a compensation claim against AF is whether AF violated EC 261/2004.
The claim ought to be short & simple and devoid of any emotion or extraneous details other than the facts absolutely necessary to determine the claim.
OP and family were in transit at JNB despite the fact that they were transferring between tickets and notwithstanding IATA's definition of "transit" which does nothing more than allocate the risk of a misconnect between its member carriers.
On the other hand, presuming that the gate agent and supervisor have a "reasonable ground" to believe that the children's birth certificates will be required at JNB (not that the children will enter, simply that the birth certificates will be required), EC 261/2004 compensation will not be due.
For all the back-and-forth here, OP loses nothing by filing a claim for EUR 600 per passenger, a total of EUR 2,400. At a minimum, AF will respond with its case for having denied boarding or it may acquiesce and pay or offer a settlement of some kind. That is the only way to even learn the basic facts of why AF denied boarding.
While I doubt that there is a case against AF, I would not presuppose an answer in this situation.
denied boarding means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight, although they have presented themselves for boarding under the conditions laid down in Article 3(2), except where there are reasonable grounds to deny them boarding, such as reasons of health, safety or security, or inadequate travel documentation.
OP ought to drop the DL vs. AF vs. VS argument and the assertion that all cannot be correct. That argument is baseless and will not get him anywhere with AF or in a later argument should he pursue a case against AF. The sole question in a compensation claim against AF is whether AF violated EC 261/2004.
The claim ought to be short & simple and devoid of any emotion or extraneous details other than the facts absolutely necessary to determine the claim.
Regardless unless ZA law views this as a transit the denial was reasonable. Generally if it's not defined most countries look at what would be the accepted definition. In regards to aviation that means being on one ticket.
The issue is that passengers have become accustomed to having two tickets treated as one. From, bag check through, to protection. However in recent years the airlines have cracked down on this. In addition for ZA, ZA has imposed and strictly follows it's requirement for minors entering the country within last year or two.
Jan 3, 2017, 11:29 am
#155
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What exactly is a transit passenger? One definition I found on Google confirms what I've always known to be the definition: "A transit passenger is a passenger who stops over for no more than 24 hours at a midpoint between the departure and destination points and then continues on his or her journey, whether with the same airline or a different one." Based on this, I'd say we met all the conditions to be considered in transit.
At this point it's up to AF (or DL) to explain why and that's about all that can be done. We all may have our own definition of what we think "transit" is but all that ultimately matters is how Air France and how South Africa define transit in your situation. Perhaps AF screwed up. Maybe you had an agent who was unfamiliar with the layout of JNB and didn't know you could connect through on two tickets in the manner you were planning to do without "crossing the border". Or perhaps they didn't - perhaps AF is right and any situation before was an agent turning a blind eye beciase they could see that what we're doing would work. Who knows - maybe even AF did get burned in a similar situation to yours and now they're being overcautious.
Without an official response from AF (or DL) or the exact wording of South African immigration/transit policies for this situation all any of us can do is speculate.
Jan 3, 2017, 12:56 pm
#156
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AF, not DL.
EC 261/2004 applies to the operating carrier which denied boarding and that was AF.
DL did not deny boarding and even it had, DL is neither an EU carrier nor was the DL-operated flight departing from the EU. The DOT rule for denied boarding applies only to denial for oversales and that is not at issue.
EC 261/2004 applies to the operating carrier which denied boarding and that was AF.
DL did not deny boarding and even it had, DL is neither an EU carrier nor was the DL-operated flight departing from the EU. The DOT rule for denied boarding applies only to denial for oversales and that is not at issue.
Jan 3, 2017, 1:24 pm
#157
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...and I cannot imagine a scenario under which AF pays out according to EC261 on the basis of IDB. AF will argue that the passenger has a ticket that terminated in JNB for which they had insufficient immigration documentation. The argument that onward travel was intended and could be proven with a separate ticket out of HRE will be completely ignored by AF who will say 'we have no contract with the customer for that journey, thank you come again.' I don't think a EC261 legal shop would even take this case on.
Jan 3, 2017, 2:30 pm
#158
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The exact wording from the South African government is needed? Given:
. practice over time gravitates toward policy and become policy's exemplification over the longer term; and
. South Africa has allowed for transit conditions' document requirements to be different than entry conditions' document requirements; and
. South Africa has allowed for international transit that doesn't require being admitted into South Africa; and
. South Africa has a relatively open society where government policies and practices in this regard are not beyond public discovery and scrutiny,
not sure what there is to speculate about South Africa's instituted policy as embodied by practice with regard to the allowance for transit conditions to be different than the allowance for entry conditions. And given what the OP and many, many others have already accomplished via JNB, this kind of transit seems to be something the government hasn't actively frustrated; it doesn't seem to have even passively frustrated it. Instead, it seems to have explicitly decided it wants such business.
Jan 3, 2017, 3:03 pm
#159
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China does require you to get a transit visa. The transfer process for MU takes a bot because theyre processing you as a transfer with the government instead of going through immigration. Transfer to any othet airline requires going through immigration.
However the law in China allows this specifically even on different tickets under the 72/144hr visa.
However the law in China allows this specifically even on different tickets under the 72/144hr visa.
TWOV = transit WITHOUT visa.
Jan 3, 2017, 3:18 pm
#160
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At T1, if transferring to MU you can skip immigration and use the transfer line. MU is allowed to let their passengers transit without getting the actual temporary entry visa stamped.
Jan 3, 2017, 3:20 pm
#161
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It may be regarded as TWOV, BUT you still get a temporary entry visa for transit at the airport. You don't just skip immigration unless the airport has setup a transfer desk and the airline handles it. Ie at PVG if you connect in T2 you always must clear immigration to connect. If under 24 hours you get a temporary entry visa.
At T1, if transferring to MU you can skip immigration and use the transfer line. MU is allowed to let their passengers transit without getting the actual temporary entry visa stamped.
At T1, if transferring to MU you can skip immigration and use the transfer line. MU is allowed to let their passengers transit without getting the actual temporary entry visa stamped.
Jan 3, 2017, 3:33 pm
#162
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Jan 3, 2017, 3:43 pm
#163
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OK, so . . . earlier today, I sent an eMail to: The South African Embassy in Washington, DC just for the heck of it . . . .
Here's a copy of my eMail:
Subject: A question regarding a family transiting JNB airport to Harare, please . . .
I am inquiring for an American family of 4, who will be traveling from the USA to Paris to Johannesburg on Air France - THEN - from JNB to Harare on South African Airways on a separate ticket.
The question is regarding their children:
The 2 children are under 18. I understand that the parents would need to produce their birth certificates to ENTER South Africa, but, their layover is only about 3 hours before their flight to Harare, so, they will be in transit, and Zimbabwe doesn't require the certificates.
Will they need to have the birth certificates for any reason at the JNB airport?
Thanking you very much for your time.
David
Here's their incredibly brief 2 sentence response:
You will need the Full Birth Certificate/s. The airline may not even let you on board.
That's it! Nothing further - No explanation. They also attached a form that starts off like this:
Annexure C
SUGGESTED FORMAT: PARENTAL CONSENT AFFIDAVIT
(CONSENT FOR PERSON UNDER THE AGE OF 18 TO TRAVEL TO OR FROM THE REPUBLIC) I/We hereby declare my/our consent that my/our daughter/son
whose Unabridged Birth Certificate (UBC) or **Equivalent document is attached may travel to and from South Africa
At the bottom of the form, it has a spot for some type of a certificatrion or notarization:
Thus signed and **sworn/solemnly affirmed before me on this ............. day of ..........................20.............
OFFICE STAMP
Commissioner of Oaths
(May be attested free of charge at any embassy or mission of the Republic of South Africa
So, they attached this form, but the eMail makes no mention of anything about it - or, more importantly, NO MENTION of the transit situation!
SO - - - The irony is, that, they actually DIDN'T need this!!!
Here's a copy of my eMail:
Subject: A question regarding a family transiting JNB airport to Harare, please . . .
I am inquiring for an American family of 4, who will be traveling from the USA to Paris to Johannesburg on Air France - THEN - from JNB to Harare on South African Airways on a separate ticket.
The question is regarding their children:
The 2 children are under 18. I understand that the parents would need to produce their birth certificates to ENTER South Africa, but, their layover is only about 3 hours before their flight to Harare, so, they will be in transit, and Zimbabwe doesn't require the certificates.
Will they need to have the birth certificates for any reason at the JNB airport?
Thanking you very much for your time.
David
Here's their incredibly brief 2 sentence response:
You will need the Full Birth Certificate/s. The airline may not even let you on board.
That's it! Nothing further - No explanation. They also attached a form that starts off like this:
Annexure C
SUGGESTED FORMAT: PARENTAL CONSENT AFFIDAVIT
(CONSENT FOR PERSON UNDER THE AGE OF 18 TO TRAVEL TO OR FROM THE REPUBLIC) I/We hereby declare my/our consent that my/our daughter/son
whose Unabridged Birth Certificate (UBC) or **Equivalent document is attached may travel to and from South Africa
At the bottom of the form, it has a spot for some type of a certificatrion or notarization:
Thus signed and **sworn/solemnly affirmed before me on this ............. day of ..........................20.............
OFFICE STAMP
Commissioner of Oaths
(May be attested free of charge at any embassy or mission of the Republic of South Africa
So, they attached this form, but the eMail makes no mention of anything about it - or, more importantly, NO MENTION of the transit situation!
SO - - - The irony is, that, they actually DIDN'T need this!!!
Last edited by davetravels; Jan 3, 2017 at 3:50 pm
Jan 3, 2017, 3:48 pm
#164
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The form looks to be for use when the parents are NOT travelling with their under-aged children who are travelling? So not applicable in this case
Jan 3, 2017, 3:50 pm
#165
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OK, so . . . earlier today, I sent an eMail to: The South African Embassy in Washington, DC just for the heck of it . . . .
Here's a copy of my eMail:
Subject: A question regarding a family transiting JNB airport to Harare, please . . .
I am inquiring for an American family of 4, who will be traveling from the USA to Paris to Johannesburg on Air France - THEN - from JNB to Harare on South African Airways on a separate ticket.
The question is regarding their children:
The 2 children are under 18. I understand that the parents would need to produce their birth certificates to ENTER South Africa, but, their layover is only about 3 hours before their flight to Harare, so, they will be in transit, and Zimbabwe doesn't require the certificates.
Will they need to have the birth certificates for any reason at the JNB airport?
Thanking you very much for your time.
David
Here's their incredibly brief 2 sentence response:
You will need the Full Birth Certificate/s. The airline may not even let you on board.
That's it! Nothing further - No explanation. They also attached a form that starts off like this:
Annexure C
SUGGESTED FORMAT: PARENTAL CONSENT AFFIDAVIT
(CONSENT FOR PERSON UNDER THE AGE OF 18 TO TRAVEL TO OR FROM THE REPUBLIC) I/We hereby declare my/our consent that my/our daughter/son
whose Unabridged Birth Certificate (UBC) or **Equivalent document is attached may travel to and from South Africa
At the bottom of the form, it has a spot for some type of a certificatrion or notarization:
Thus signed and **sworn/solemnly affirmed before me on this ............. day of
.........................
.20.............
.................................................. .................
OFFICE STAMP
Commissioner of Oaths
(May be attested free of charge at any embassy or mission of the Republic of South Africa
So, they attached this form, but the eMail makes no mention of anything about it - or, more importantly, NO MENTION of the transit situation!
SO - - - The irony is, that, they actually DIDN'T need this!!!
Here's a copy of my eMail:
Subject: A question regarding a family transiting JNB airport to Harare, please . . .
I am inquiring for an American family of 4, who will be traveling from the USA to Paris to Johannesburg on Air France - THEN - from JNB to Harare on South African Airways on a separate ticket.
The question is regarding their children:
The 2 children are under 18. I understand that the parents would need to produce their birth certificates to ENTER South Africa, but, their layover is only about 3 hours before their flight to Harare, so, they will be in transit, and Zimbabwe doesn't require the certificates.
Will they need to have the birth certificates for any reason at the JNB airport?
Thanking you very much for your time.
David
Here's their incredibly brief 2 sentence response:
You will need the Full Birth Certificate/s. The airline may not even let you on board.
That's it! Nothing further - No explanation. They also attached a form that starts off like this:
Annexure C
SUGGESTED FORMAT: PARENTAL CONSENT AFFIDAVIT
(CONSENT FOR PERSON UNDER THE AGE OF 18 TO TRAVEL TO OR FROM THE REPUBLIC) I/We hereby declare my/our consent that my/our daughter/son
whose Unabridged Birth Certificate (UBC) or **Equivalent document is attached may travel to and from South Africa
At the bottom of the form, it has a spot for some type of a certificatrion or notarization:
Thus signed and **sworn/solemnly affirmed before me on this ............. day of
.........................
.20.............
.................................................. .................
OFFICE STAMP
Commissioner of Oaths
(May be attested free of charge at any embassy or mission of the Republic of South Africa
So, they attached this form, but the eMail makes no mention of anything about it - or, more importantly, NO MENTION of the transit situation!
SO - - - The irony is, that, they actually DIDN'T need this!!!