Blistering NYT piece on SkyMiles: In DL’s FF Magic Trick, Not Just Rabbits Disappear
Aug 5, 2015, 9:17 am
#151
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York, western US
Programs: DM/3MM
Posts: 4,246
This +1,000. It continually amazes me how many people on FT fail to recognize that for the vast majority of passengers, the primary decision factors in what airline/flights are taken are aligned to routing, schedule, and price - NOT FFP rewards. The goal of air travel is transportation from A to B, not accruing an imaginary currency that could be taken away (not devalued, just straight taken away) at any given time.
Those rewards are nice, of course, but they are nothing more than the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.
Those rewards are nice, of course, but they are nothing more than the cherry on top of the icing on the cake.
Aug 5, 2015, 9:33 am
#152
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Delta skymiles DM + 1MM
Posts: 8,144
I posted once.
Looks like here to me:
See above.
I think the NYT piece is well written. I agree that they could have been more balanced by at least stating that the 830k redemption was not typical. But it is a real redemption, and much higher than other airlines charge for their most expensive seats that are widely available. So it's a legitimate article in my opinion, and Delta is last in this area amongst US carriers.
Looks like here to me:
See above.
I think the NYT piece is well written. I agree that they could have been more balanced by at least stating that the 830k redemption was not typical. But it is a real redemption, and much higher than other airlines charge for their most expensive seats that are widely available. So it's a legitimate article in my opinion, and Delta is last in this area amongst US carriers.
as for the article, you are entitled to your opinion as am I but its clearly way biased against Delta. Fine with me because I can easily find plenty of low skymiles redemption seats.
Aug 5, 2015, 9:36 am
#153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree that the potential for an upgrade is that big of a decision factor for as many travelers as you are suggesting.
In my circles of friends and colleagues, I cannot think of a single person who would choose to pay more and take a connection because they might get upgraded vs. paying less for a nonstop flight. In fact, if I had an employee who told me they paid substantially more for a flight or took some convoluted routing that cut into working hours because they might get upgraded, they would not be an employee of mine for much longer.
And remember that in the brave new world of FCM, the ability to upgrade is tied to nothing more than one's wallet.
Aug 5, 2015, 9:50 am
#154
Join Date: Jun 2013
Programs: DL Plat, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, Hertz Prez Circle, National Exec
Posts: 1,357
But that only applies to the subset of customers who are elites, or who hold enough miles/instruments to upgrade. To have that status or those miles/instruments, you have to look back at all the past purchase decisions made to accrue them. Again, icing on the cake.
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree that the potential for an upgrade is that big of a decision factor for as many travelers as you are suggesting.
In my circles of friends and colleagues, I cannot think of a single person who would choose to pay more and take a connection because they might get upgraded vs. paying less for a nonstop flight. In fact, if I had an employee who told me they paid substantially more for a flight or took some convoluted routing that cut into working hours because they might get upgraded, they would not be an employee of mine for much longer.
And remember that in the brave new world of FCM, the ability to upgrade is tied to nothing more than one's wallet.
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree that the potential for an upgrade is that big of a decision factor for as many travelers as you are suggesting.
In my circles of friends and colleagues, I cannot think of a single person who would choose to pay more and take a connection because they might get upgraded vs. paying less for a nonstop flight. In fact, if I had an employee who told me they paid substantially more for a flight or took some convoluted routing that cut into working hours because they might get upgraded, they would not be an employee of mine for much longer.
And remember that in the brave new world of FCM, the ability to upgrade is tied to nothing more than one's wallet.
And if you are forced to book your travel through a corporate travel agency, then FCM isn't an option because it isn't offered. So instead of being a chance to buy cheap upgrades, FCM is just upgrade opportunities disappearing.
But hey, admitting that would mean admitting that not everyone has the exact same travel patterns that you do. Rankings like these show that for the majority of passengers, Delta has greatly cut into the value of their FF program. And for lots of people, maybe not you, but lots of people, a FF program does influence their buying decisions. In fact, it is even possible to recognize stuff Delta does well, like IRROPS recovery, while still bemoaning the slashing of FF benefits. You can even recognize that Delta is doing it because they are confident they will sell the seats regardless but still not like it because of the impacts it has to you as an individual. Delta as a company is trying to maximize the amount of profit they can make. And customers as consumers want to maximize their value for their spend. Sometimes these desires are in conflict. Huh.
Aug 5, 2015, 10:14 am
#155
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
And what about people who don't live at a hub? If you are taking a connection regardless then choosing the airline/routing that gives you the best shot at an upgrade can matter, especially if the time difference is negligible. As is how many miles you might earn. Connecting through MSP vs. ORD, or SLC vs. DEN, or ATL vs. DFW (and so on) isn't a huge difference in time or complexity. So what you get out of it comes in to play.
And if you are forced to book your travel through a corporate travel agency, then FCM isn't an option because it isn't offered. So instead of being a chance to buy cheap upgrades, FCM is just upgrade opportunities disappearing.
But hey, admitting that would mean admitting that not everyone has the exact same travel patterns that you do. Rankings like these show that for the majority of passengers, Delta has greatly cut into the value of their FF program. And for lots of people, maybe not you, but lots of people, a FF program does influence their buying decisions. In fact, it is even possible to recognize stuff Delta does well, like IRROPS recovery, while still bemoaning the slashing of FF benefits. You can even recognize that Delta is doing it because they are confident they will sell the seats regardless but still not like it because of the impacts it has to you as an individual. Delta as a company is trying to maximize the amount of profit they can make. And customers as consumers want to maximize their value for their spend. Sometimes these desires are in conflict. Huh.
And if you are forced to book your travel through a corporate travel agency, then FCM isn't an option because it isn't offered. So instead of being a chance to buy cheap upgrades, FCM is just upgrade opportunities disappearing.
But hey, admitting that would mean admitting that not everyone has the exact same travel patterns that you do. Rankings like these show that for the majority of passengers, Delta has greatly cut into the value of their FF program. And for lots of people, maybe not you, but lots of people, a FF program does influence their buying decisions. In fact, it is even possible to recognize stuff Delta does well, like IRROPS recovery, while still bemoaning the slashing of FF benefits. You can even recognize that Delta is doing it because they are confident they will sell the seats regardless but still not like it because of the impacts it has to you as an individual. Delta as a company is trying to maximize the amount of profit they can make. And customers as consumers want to maximize their value for their spend. Sometimes these desires are in conflict. Huh.
My argument is that for most people, price and operational elements are bigger decision factors than FFP, regardless of travel pattern or purchase method.
Even when price/schedule/connections are effectively the same, I personally see (from the people I am able to observe) more decisions being made based on things like service preference and past experience than on FFP. Some people like how "fun" WN is. Other people like the blue leather on DL. Others avoid UA because of that one time they lost their bag. But for many, the mileage accrual and slight chance at an upgrade (if they're even eligible, which most people are not), is secondary to all this.
I have never said that FFP should be a complete non-factor, only that for the vast majority of travelers I see, the FFP is a very, very minor factor that is only considered after a multitude of other things.
Aug 5, 2015, 12:20 pm
#157
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Marriott Plat, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 16,278
Coach? Decent... D1? Pretty bad. Assuming those are round trip numbers. If those are one-way numbers I can only laugh.
Last edited by javabytes; Aug 5, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Aug 6, 2015, 12:04 am
#158
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
In my circles of friends and colleagues, I cannot think of a single person who would choose to pay more and take a connection because they might get upgraded vs. paying less for a nonstop flight. In fact, if I had an employee who told me they paid substantially more for a flight or took some convoluted routing that cut into working hours because they might get upgraded, they would not be an employee of mine for much longer.
Oh, and that was all my own time and money.
Aug 6, 2015, 6:16 am
#159
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 5,292
I've paid more for a flight, and taken a connection rather than a nonstop, for (1) a reasonable chance of an upgrade on the two connecting flights, (2) the almost certainty of an upgrade on the (nonstop) return, and (3) enough miles to actually potentially matter for status, meaning more upgrades and other benefits in the future.
Oh, and that was all my own time and money.
Oh, and that was all my own time and money.
Aug 6, 2015, 6:19 am
#160
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: Delta skymiles DM + 1MM
Posts: 8,144
they are roundtrip. For the D1 award while not all that great still falls way short of the 830,000 miles as stated in the article. In fact, other then the one example on the first page of this thread, I cant find anything for 830,000 miles.
Aug 6, 2015, 7:27 am
#161
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Why looking for just 830,000 SkyMiles? You can look for anything in the 500,000 mile to 1,000,000 range and the point would be much the same: DL has some very high mileage award ticket prices for flights on its own metal, prices that may or may not be currently seen with other airlines' FFP for travel in the same class of service on their own metal.
Aug 6, 2015, 7:40 am
#162
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I would guess that on a macro level you are in the smallest minority of passengers. Those traveling on OPM especially (the bread and butter travelers) are primarily concerned with reliability and time. Period. This FT subset doesn't exist in the world DL is successfully building.
There is a reason why DL has been trying to groom the use-OPM-at-just-about-any-price crowd with the SkyMiles earnings adjustments.
A lot of the OPM crowd cares about the FFP returns. As is evident in it being proverbial water cooler talk at the major IBs, consulting firms, accounting firms, law firms and other professional services firms where employees are relying upon OPM for travel.
Aug 6, 2015, 8:01 am
#163
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ATL
Programs: DL Scattered Smothered Covered Medallion, Some hotel & car stuff, Kroger Plus Card
Posts: 10,745
I would guess that on a macro level you are in the smallest minority of passengers. Those traveling on OPM especially (the bread and butter travelers) are primarily concerned with reliability and time. Period. This FT subset doesn't exist in the world DL is successfully building.
The water coolers I frequent, often the discussion is something like: "Yeah I prefer to collect AA miles but I'm flying UA this month because they have nonstops to my client location and are a bit cheaper."
Aug 6, 2015, 8:08 am
#164
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
You can care about and enjoy FFP returns and at the same time not allow those auxiliary benefits drive your purchase and scheduling decisions.
The water coolers I frequent, often the discussion is something like: "Yeah I prefer to collect AA miles but I'm flying UA this month because they have nonstops to my client location and are a bit cheaper."
The water coolers I frequent, often the discussion is something like: "Yeah I prefer to collect AA miles but I'm flying UA this month because they have nonstops to my client location and are a bit cheaper."
Aug 6, 2015, 8:10 am
#165
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
When I flew OPM, I didn't pay any attention to (or even know about relative) "reliability". I cared somewhat about time, but mainly to the extent I had constraints (leave after X, arrive by Y).