Jul 14, 2015, 4:38 pm
Last edit by: Zorak
Summary of SkyMiles Upgrade Changes
Effective Aug 1, 2015, DM's on paid fares and no companions will no longer receive complimentary upgrades JFK-LAX/SFO. Delta's reps failed to disclose this in their June 14 announcement.
For travel on or after June 1, 2016, additional fare classes are eligible for SkyMiles upgrades:
Within North American and northern South America, L/U/T fares are now eligible. (Previously only Y/B/M/H/Q/K)
For all other markets, H/Q/K fares are now eligible. (Previously only Y/B/M)
SkyMiles Upgrade Awards will also require more miles. Prices for the following markets as quoted by multiple reservations agents: (Pricing is one-way)
(current chart based on observations has been moved to this thread: Upgrading with miles)
Effective Aug 1, 2015, DM's on paid fares and no companions will no longer receive complimentary upgrades JFK-LAX/SFO. Delta's reps failed to disclose this in their June 14 announcement.
For travel on or after June 1, 2016, additional fare classes are eligible for SkyMiles upgrades:
Within North American and northern South America, L/U/T fares are now eligible. (Previously only Y/B/M/H/Q/K)
For all other markets, H/Q/K fares are now eligible. (Previously only Y/B/M)
SkyMiles Upgrade Awards will also require more miles. Prices for the following markets as quoted by multiple reservations agents: (Pricing is one-way)
(current chart based on observations has been moved to this thread: Upgrading with miles)
SkyMiles July Announcements
Jul 16, 2015, 10:28 am
#196
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
I hope DL (and the other US3) sends a bottle of the finest Champagne to the DOJ. With ~60% less competition, they now have the power to do whatever they want. I cringe every time I see a post from DL about SM changes. You just know it isn't good news. Congratulations DL, I'm now seriously reconsidering my loyalty again.
I laugh at the DOJ "investigating" collusion. They should investigate themselves for *allowing* the elimination of 4 major airlines in the U.S.
I laugh at the DOJ "investigating" collusion. They should investigate themselves for *allowing* the elimination of 4 major airlines in the U.S.
And DL's SkyMiles shenanigans aren't all that surprising either. 
Jul 16, 2015, 10:33 am
#197
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: TPA
Programs: United - PG, Marriott Silver
Posts: 1,625
Interesting. With the charts gone from delta.dum, I fully expected the new upgrade rates (the devaluation) to begin immediately, while the increased fare code eligibility (the enhancement) to not begin until 2016.
Jul 16, 2015, 10:34 am
#198
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Jul 16, 2015, 10:56 am
#199
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
\EXACTLY! That is why the Wiki is nothing more than creative writing at this point. I got the same result as Xeno from the Diamond Line.
If it is true, so be it. Y'all wanted international upgrades from cheap fares...you got 'em. "...but Bubba, it's cheaper to just pay for the discounted Business fare"......BINGO...good business for DL/
If it is true, so be it. Y'all wanted international upgrades from cheap fares...you got 'em. "...but Bubba, it's cheaper to just pay for the discounted Business fare"......BINGO...good business for DL/
Jul 16, 2015, 10:57 am
#200
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
Here's a thought: in their next quarterly filing with the SEC, how much will Delta claim/admit the liability due to SkyMiles in customer hands (that is, their estimate of the value of those SkyMiles) decreased? A bigger number means higher "earnings" and they probably don't expect their customers to notice as much as Wall St. will.
Jul 16, 2015, 10:59 am
#201
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 401
Setting aside the upgrade issue, the endgame here became obvious when the award chart slinked away in the middle of the night. DL is heading to the same destination as WN, but doing it in a somewhat difference sequence and style. WN chose to blow up the dam, while DL practices Chinese water torture.
Varying the mile price by time of day, day of week, destination, season, etc. is exactly what WN instituted earlier this year. For many pax, this marked the third devaluation of Vapid Rewards in four years. Originally, it took any 8 paid RTs/16 paid OWs, no matter how short or discounted, to get 1 free RT/2 OWs anywhere in the system. In one swoop, WN went to revenue-based earnings and redemptions. A year or so later, the redemption price was raised from 60 points per $1 of fare to 70 points. Earlier this year, the fixed rate was dropped with some redemptions going to 80 points per $1. In other words, a one-third devaluation from the original.
With DL, at first blush, there would seem to be no need to vary redemptions by demand; I thought that was the point of five different award tiers. The only plausible explanation is that this is a bridge to pure revenue-based system, probably in 2017 given Virginia Avenue's propensity to unwrap a new bundle of enhancements every year. So anyone who does anything at this point to accumulate SkyMiles will get what they deserve.
As an aside, when will someone start the thread to post snagging or even sighting 7.5K awards? Does this mean we can expect other discounted awards, such as 18K for TATL?
Varying the mile price by time of day, day of week, destination, season, etc. is exactly what WN instituted earlier this year. For many pax, this marked the third devaluation of Vapid Rewards in four years. Originally, it took any 8 paid RTs/16 paid OWs, no matter how short or discounted, to get 1 free RT/2 OWs anywhere in the system. In one swoop, WN went to revenue-based earnings and redemptions. A year or so later, the redemption price was raised from 60 points per $1 of fare to 70 points. Earlier this year, the fixed rate was dropped with some redemptions going to 80 points per $1. In other words, a one-third devaluation from the original.
With DL, at first blush, there would seem to be no need to vary redemptions by demand; I thought that was the point of five different award tiers. The only plausible explanation is that this is a bridge to pure revenue-based system, probably in 2017 given Virginia Avenue's propensity to unwrap a new bundle of enhancements every year. So anyone who does anything at this point to accumulate SkyMiles will get what they deserve.
As an aside, when will someone start the thread to post snagging or even sighting 7.5K awards? Does this mean we can expect other discounted awards, such as 18K for TATL?
Jul 16, 2015, 11:11 am
#202
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bye Delta
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Marriott Plat, Nat'l Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 16,278
Setting aside the upgrade issue, the endgame here became obvious when the award chart slinked away in the middle of the night. DL is heading to the same destination as WN, but doing it in a somewhat difference sequence and style. WN chose to blow up the dam, while DL practices Chinese water torture.
Varying the mile price by time of day, day of week, destination, season, etc. is exactly what WN instituted earlier this year. For many pax, this marked the third devaluation of Vapid Rewards in four years. Originally, it took any 8 paid RTs/16 paid OWs, no matter how short or discounted, to get 1 free RT/2 OWs anywhere in the system. In one swoop, WN went to revenue-based earnings and redemptions. A year or so later, the redemption price was raised from 60 points per $1 of fare to 70 points. Earlier this year, the fixed rate was dropped with some redemptions going to 80 points per $1. In other words, a one-third devaluation from the original.
With DL, at first blush, there would seem to be no need to vary redemptions by demand; I thought that was the point of five different award tiers. The only plausible explanation is that this is a bridge to pure revenue-based system, probably in 2017 given Virginia Avenue's propensity to unwrap a new bundle of enhancements every year. So anyone who does anything at this point to accumulate SkyMiles will get what they deserve.
As an aside, when will someone start the thread to post snagging or even sighting 7.5K awards? Does this mean we can expect other discounted awards, such as 18K for TATL?
Varying the mile price by time of day, day of week, destination, season, etc. is exactly what WN instituted earlier this year. For many pax, this marked the third devaluation of Vapid Rewards in four years. Originally, it took any 8 paid RTs/16 paid OWs, no matter how short or discounted, to get 1 free RT/2 OWs anywhere in the system. In one swoop, WN went to revenue-based earnings and redemptions. A year or so later, the redemption price was raised from 60 points per $1 of fare to 70 points. Earlier this year, the fixed rate was dropped with some redemptions going to 80 points per $1. In other words, a one-third devaluation from the original.
With DL, at first blush, there would seem to be no need to vary redemptions by demand; I thought that was the point of five different award tiers. The only plausible explanation is that this is a bridge to pure revenue-based system, probably in 2017 given Virginia Avenue's propensity to unwrap a new bundle of enhancements every year. So anyone who does anything at this point to accumulate SkyMiles will get what they deserve.
As an aside, when will someone start the thread to post snagging or even sighting 7.5K awards? Does this mean we can expect other discounted awards, such as 18K for TATL?
Jul 16, 2015, 11:15 am
#203
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: TPA
Programs: United - PG, Marriott Silver
Posts: 1,625
Where I draw the line is with the swift and significant devaluation of existing miles.
You have a lot of very loyal customers who have banked huge sums of miles for various purposes. Essentially, as a condition of their loyalty, they expected to be able to purchase award tickets with the miles they banked.
People can be upset or complain about the current value proposition of loyalty all they like; but that's crying over spilt milk. It's all laid out for us now: You gotta really spend to earn miles. You aren't going to be able to use those miles for long-haul J travel unless you got a bunch of them. Your status isn't going to get you up front 90% of the time. etc. etc. While it may stink, it's all a matter of supply and demand.
The devaluation of already-earned miles is changing the rules of the game halfway through. People stayed loyal with an expected return that is no longer there. Someone who banked half a million miles with the expectation of taking the family to Asia for a once-in-a-lifetime family trip, now can't do that.
It was reasonable to assume that r/t J to Europe would go up from 100k eventually; and perhaps 120 was a fair number. But what we are seeing now is that it's going to cost 160, 200, 250, even when booked in advance. What has happened is the customers who are going to be hit the hardest are the ones who have the most miles. Who are those customers? The most loyal. That's what makes the increased redemptions problematic for me.
Jul 16, 2015, 11:19 am
#204
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York, western US
Programs: DM/3MM
Posts: 4,246
If true, I don't understand why they would remove complimentary upgrades for DMs on the transcons. They would technically still be behind DMs and PMs who were using GUCs and RUCs. DMs might not be using certs on these routes because a) they had run out or b) decided to chance it.
If there are empty seats after certs are filled (and in my experience that's unlikely as DL has been good at filling the cabin), why not upgrade DMs as they have been doing? Plus it helps differentiate DM from PM...and makes it more competitive with, say EXP on AA (which I believe is one of the reasons they brought back complimentary upgrades for DMs, after taking it away).
If there are empty seats after certs are filled (and in my experience that's unlikely as DL has been good at filling the cabin), why not upgrade DMs as they have been doing? Plus it helps differentiate DM from PM...and makes it more competitive with, say EXP on AA (which I believe is one of the reasons they brought back complimentary upgrades for DMs, after taking it away).
Jul 16, 2015, 11:42 am
#205
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: DL DM 2MM, Marriott LT Titanium, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 15,207
If true, I don't understand why they would remove complimentary upgrades for DMs on the transcons. They would technically still be behind DMs and PMs who were using GUCs and RUCs. DMs might not be using certs on these routes because a) they had run out or b) decided to chance it.
Its really getting to the point that the best 'benefit' from the skymiles program is better customer service handling. Maybe you can pay for that soon too... 'Why Wait? With optional SkyPriority Service plan, for only an additional 5,000 miles per call to Delta, you can be routed to the top of the queue at the elite service desk'.
Jul 16, 2015, 12:07 pm
#206
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Mostly living in the basement
Programs: Newly minted free agent; MR LT(!)TE, HH SE, BA SECM, DL MM, UA PS, 2V Fanboi, CBP GE
Posts: 5,110
I wonder if this will force the introduction of a true premium economy class on long haul Delta service?
The reason I think this might happen is that, if the devaluation is as bad as these early reports indicate, D1 class will become basically inaccessible to a whole class of people who had previously been flying in D1 using miles or mileage upgrades.
The reason I think this might happen is that, if the devaluation is as bad as these early reports indicate, D1 class will become basically inaccessible to a whole class of people who had previously been flying in D1 using miles or mileage upgrades.
Most people buy cheapest available. They don't care about these changes. Some people buy J outright (corporate policy or whatever). They don't care about these changes. That leaves a tiny, tiny percentage of people who jump through hoops to chase OU inventory or play games with gate waitlists. I suspect this number is typically between 1 and 4 per longhaul flight.
Meanwhile, W has been around for a while. You can even buy DL marketed W seats on 3 different carriers. If DL wanted to introduce a proper W service, it would be because they think people will buy it at a profitable price. (They must already have data on this based on their own sales.) That some people can't upgrade into J is not a reason to invest millions in a whole new product.
Jul 16, 2015, 12:11 pm
#207
Join Date: Apr 2003
Programs: B6 Mosaic, Bonvoy LT Titanium (x SPG LT), IHG Spire, UA Silver
Posts: 5,850
I have long been supportive of the airlines' efforts to be profitable, including adding fees, FCM, closing of loopholes, spend-based miles earning, etc.
Where I draw the line is with the swift and significant devaluation of existing miles.
You have a lot of very loyal customers who have banked huge sums of miles for various purposes. Essentially, as a condition of their loyalty, they expected to be able to purchase award tickets with the miles they banked.
People can be upset or complain about the current value proposition of loyalty all they like; but that's crying over spilt milk. It's all laid out for us now: You gotta really spend to earn miles. You aren't going to be able to use those miles for long-haul J travel unless you got a bunch of them. Your status isn't going to get you up front 90% of the time. etc. etc. While it may stink, it's all a matter of supply and demand.
The devaluation of already-earned miles is changing the rules of the game halfway through. People stayed loyal with an expected return that is no longer there. Someone who banked half a million miles with the expectation of taking the family to Asia for a once-in-a-lifetime family trip, now can't do that.
It was reasonable to assume that r/t J to Europe would go up from 100k eventually; and perhaps 120 was a fair number. But what we are seeing now is that it's going to cost 160, 200, 250, even when booked in advance. What has happened is the customers who are going to be hit the hardest are the ones who have the most miles. Who are those customers? The most loyal. That's what makes the increased redemptions problematic for me.
Where I draw the line is with the swift and significant devaluation of existing miles.
You have a lot of very loyal customers who have banked huge sums of miles for various purposes. Essentially, as a condition of their loyalty, they expected to be able to purchase award tickets with the miles they banked.
People can be upset or complain about the current value proposition of loyalty all they like; but that's crying over spilt milk. It's all laid out for us now: You gotta really spend to earn miles. You aren't going to be able to use those miles for long-haul J travel unless you got a bunch of them. Your status isn't going to get you up front 90% of the time. etc. etc. While it may stink, it's all a matter of supply and demand.
The devaluation of already-earned miles is changing the rules of the game halfway through. People stayed loyal with an expected return that is no longer there. Someone who banked half a million miles with the expectation of taking the family to Asia for a once-in-a-lifetime family trip, now can't do that.
It was reasonable to assume that r/t J to Europe would go up from 100k eventually; and perhaps 120 was a fair number. But what we are seeing now is that it's going to cost 160, 200, 250, even when booked in advance. What has happened is the customers who are going to be hit the hardest are the ones who have the most miles. Who are those customers? The most loyal. That's what makes the increased redemptions problematic for me.
Jul 16, 2015, 12:22 pm
#208
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS
Posts: 15,027
I wonder if Delta defrauded AMEX by devaluing skymiles.
Suppose I make waffle irons which I sell to AMEX for $10 each, who in turn gives the waffle irons away to customers signup up for AMEX DieuwerAwards cards.
Now, I devalue my waffle irons by making them so cheap they basically fall apart after a one-time use. No way they are worth $10 but AMEX still has to buy them for $10 upfront because the contract says so. However, AMEX customers won't be thrilled and start cancelling the AMEX DieuwerAwards card and don't sign up for any other.
AMEX is screwed because they are now stuck with thousands of waffle irons they cannot get rid of!
Suppose I make waffle irons which I sell to AMEX for $10 each, who in turn gives the waffle irons away to customers signup up for AMEX DieuwerAwards cards.
Now, I devalue my waffle irons by making them so cheap they basically fall apart after a one-time use. No way they are worth $10 but AMEX still has to buy them for $10 upfront because the contract says so. However, AMEX customers won't be thrilled and start cancelling the AMEX DieuwerAwards card and don't sign up for any other.
AMEX is screwed because they are now stuck with thousands of waffle irons they cannot get rid of!
Jul 16, 2015, 1:56 pm
#209
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: TPA
Programs: United - PG, Marriott Silver
Posts: 1,625
I wonder if Delta defrauded AMEX by devaluing skymiles.
Suppose I make waffle irons which I sell to AMEX for $10 each, who in turn gives the waffle irons away to customers signup up for AMEX DieuwerAwards cards.
Now, I devalue my waffle irons by making them so cheap they basically fall apart after a one-time use. No way they are worth $10 but AMEX still has to buy them for $10 upfront because the contract says so. However, AMEX customers won't be thrilled and start cancelling the AMEX DieuwerAwards card and don't sign up for any other.
AMEX is screwed because they are now stuck with thousands of waffle irons they cannot get rid of!
Suppose I make waffle irons which I sell to AMEX for $10 each, who in turn gives the waffle irons away to customers signup up for AMEX DieuwerAwards cards.
Now, I devalue my waffle irons by making them so cheap they basically fall apart after a one-time use. No way they are worth $10 but AMEX still has to buy them for $10 upfront because the contract says so. However, AMEX customers won't be thrilled and start cancelling the AMEX DieuwerAwards card and don't sign up for any other.
AMEX is screwed because they are now stuck with thousands of waffle irons they cannot get rid of!
I don't fly near as much as many on here, but in the last 6 years DL has gotten every dollar I spent on air travel, while AF and KE have been the ones to fly me across oceans in J for free. At some point the jig is gonna be up.
Jul 16, 2015, 2:16 pm
#210
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Meechigan
Posts: 1,006
At the new rates a cheapo TATL coach ticket + 160k mile upgrade is maybe ~$3k of value. You might find Z fares that low in some markets but they're rare; and nonexistent in hubs and uncompetitive markets.
As much as people hate to admit it, even the new rates represent a decent value (on a cpm basis).