Delta will send an RFP for 744/767 replacements 'by the end of the month'
Mar 12, 2014, 5:10 pm
#31
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Anderson just sounds uninformed with his statement. He referred to the A330 as a small widebody. Huh? The A330 has more seats than Delta's 777's!
So are the 788's currently on order at risk of being canceled? It seems ridiculous to replace a 767 with an A330 or A350 with both of those aircraft being a lot larger. Capacity discipline...yeah, ok.
So are the 788's currently on order at risk of being canceled? It seems ridiculous to replace a 767 with an A330 or A350 with both of those aircraft being a lot larger. Capacity discipline...yeah, ok.
There's no consistency in RA's comments, and no consistency either with what the two makers are offering, or with what DL has done in the past. He wants a 275 seat plane with a 5500 mile range to replace the 275 seat plane with a 5500 mile range they're already flying, then goes on to list a bunch of planes with 7000-9000 mile ranges of varying sizes. The 333NEO is going to be a heavy long range plane that would need to underfly its range to fit his niche. The only planes that make sense size/range wise are the current 333 (which DL just ordered 10 of) or new 763ERs. Boeing would probable give DL a good deal on 763ERs if they asked nice, and Airbus is obviously willing to sell 333s for cheap to bridge the gap to the A350-8. Obviously not the most fuel efficient option, but neither Boeing nor Airbus is going to make a plane of the 763ER specs because the airlines that actually buy new airplanes (middle east and Asian carriers in particular) want longer ranges.
The 757 was ended somewhat because it served a niche that was not particularly viable, with the lower end being covered by the 739/A321 and the upper end covered by 767/A330 (and later the 787), and nobody was ordering them (including DL). Boeing offered the 787-3 which was essentially a twin aisle 753 and exactly nobody wanted it.
Until DL is willing to buy "experimental" planes and/or be a launch customer with a big order, they're not going to have any say in the configuration of new airplanes and they'll just have to underfly the widebodies.
The 757 was ended somewhat because it served a niche that was not particularly viable, with the lower end being covered by the 739/A321 and the upper end covered by 767/A330 (and later the 787), and nobody was ordering them (including DL). Boeing offered the 787-3 which was essentially a twin aisle 753 and exactly nobody wanted it.
Until DL is willing to buy "experimental" planes and/or be a launch customer with a big order, they're not going to have any say in the configuration of new airplanes and they'll just have to underfly the widebodies.
What's more likely:
1) The CEO of a major airline, possibly the most admired executive in the industry is "uninformed" or "inconsistent"; or
2) Jens Flottau, some nobody journalist, whose article reads like it was written by a 7th grader at the East Sandusky Jr High Monthly Gazette, is simply doing an awful job of conveying something that he probably didn't fully understand in the first place.
Mar 12, 2014, 5:13 pm
#32
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If Delta is moving away from 747s, and opting for aircraft lighter than 777s (which may still carry just as many people), it sounds like they're trying to save fuel by flying lighter. Some of the newer models may save weight by using composite materials, but I can't help thinking they're sacrificing some cargo capacity as well.
Maybe they're betting that cargo will continue to decline as a percentage of their total revenue, and choosing their future fleet based on that? I know not long ago Northwest had the biggest cargo operation of any US passenger carrier, but I think Delta retired all their 747 freighters pretty quickly after the merger.
Maybe they're betting that cargo will continue to decline as a percentage of their total revenue, and choosing their future fleet based on that? I know not long ago Northwest had the biggest cargo operation of any US passenger carrier, but I think Delta retired all their 747 freighters pretty quickly after the merger.
2) NW lost a contract with DHL, which is what precipitated the folding of that business. It had nothing to do with the merger.
Mar 12, 2014, 5:25 pm
#33
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Sure, and certainly for DL the idea of dedicated freighters, as opposed to cargo on passenger aircraft, seems alien. But it was a bigger blip for NWA than for its competitors. And from what I've read, a profitable blip, at least before the 2007-2008 economic downturn.
I wouldn't word #2 quite that simply. NW lost a contract with DHL in 2007, got a new contract in 2008 through 2011, and then DHL withdrew from the US, before coming back in some limited form in 2011.
I wouldn't word #2 quite that simply. NW lost a contract with DHL in 2007, got a new contract in 2008 through 2011, and then DHL withdrew from the US, before coming back in some limited form in 2011.
Mar 12, 2014, 5:31 pm
#34
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I missed this one. If we are to assume Anderson was referring to MTOW to base size then the 787-8 is smaller than the A330. AlphaGolf listed the A333 MTOW at 534,000 lbs and the A330-200 is listed at 510,000 lbs. The Boeing 787-8 has a lower MTOW of 502,500 lbs. You're above statement is incorrect if we are to consider the Boeing 787-8 a "modern wide body".
Glad you found it 
nice work Watson. Any way you want to slice it, the A330 series is indeed on the small side of today's wide body offerings. a350, 777, 748i, A380 are all larger. I'm not sure of the 787, and have no desire to research the same in order to prove a point. Perhaps it is smaller. Either way, Anderson referring to the 330 is a small wide body is not incorrect. In the grand scheme of things, it is. Good day to you.
Originally Posted by readywhenyouare
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It is indeed small. Smaller than any other modern wide body, excluding the 767. What else is there? Yep, nothing else smaller.
It is indeed small. Smaller than any other modern wide body, excluding the 767. What else is there? Yep, nothing else smaller.
nice work Watson. Any way you want to slice it, the A330 series is indeed on the small side of today's wide body offerings. a350, 777, 748i, A380 are all larger. I'm not sure of the 787, and have no desire to research the same in order to prove a point. Perhaps it is smaller. Either way, Anderson referring to the 330 is a small wide body is not incorrect. In the grand scheme of things, it is. Good day to you.
Mar 12, 2014, 5:56 pm
#35
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1. Maybe they don't. But Delta is built around Atlanta. Yes, it has and uses other hubs, but I'd be shocked if Delta didn't want to connect key business markets like PVG and perhaps PEK with its megahub in ATL.
2. This is already playing out. NRT-ICN, NRT-PEK and others cut, in favor of the TPAC hub at SEA. And they've talked about trying to put less emphasis on NRT, in part because of the sluggish economy and sinking Yen.
3. Sure. I was suggesting that range might be a big factor in what DL chooses, like choosing a package of 787s.
4. Yes. So they're not going to pick 50 of one airplane. They're going to pick either a mix of 787 types, or the A359 and A3510, or perhaps the A333 and the A3510.
2. This is already playing out. NRT-ICN, NRT-PEK and others cut, in favor of the TPAC hub at SEA. And they've talked about trying to put less emphasis on NRT, in part because of the sluggish economy and sinking Yen.
3. Sure. I was suggesting that range might be a big factor in what DL chooses, like choosing a package of 787s.
4. Yes. So they're not going to pick 50 of one airplane. They're going to pick either a mix of 787 types, or the A359 and A3510, or perhaps the A333 and the A3510.
I guess I'd better go to the Airbus website and do some research).
Mar 12, 2014, 5:58 pm
#36
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I always remember L1011. I flew L1011 for 5 times. Yes, unfortunately, it's time to let it go. We will be missed. I haven't flew 744 aircraft. I never flew on it. I never flying the 744 aircraft all of my life. Sad see to go.
Right! Not a small. They have a bigger jet.
Mar 12, 2014, 5:59 pm
#37
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Sure, and certainly for DL the idea of dedicated freighters, as opposed to cargo on passenger aircraft, seems alien. But it was a bigger blip for NWA than for its competitors. And from what I've read, a profitable blip, at least before the 2007-2008 economic downturn.
Sounds like a real solid foundation for a cargo operation... Cargo is best left to the dedicated cargo operators. It is a distraction.
Mar 12, 2014, 6:07 pm
#38
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Shows how little I know - At least I got the "horribly ugly" correct - I've seen those things in person and pictures don't do them justice.
Mar 12, 2014, 7:33 pm
#39
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Why DL is not interesting the 777X? Mr. Anderson will not able to order the 777X. What a disappointed. I thought DL wants to order the 777-9X.
Perhaps, I think DL will ordering the 77W aircraft. I think the 77W aircraft is the right choice by replace 744 aircraft.
I thought DL wants to order the 777-9X. Perhaps, I think DL will ordering the 77W aircraft. I think the 77W aircraft is the right choice by replace 744 aircraft.
Mar 12, 2014, 7:50 pm
#40
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Mar 12, 2014, 8:52 pm
#41
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It is absurd to make assumptions about what they want to buy based on PR statements when they are about to launch in to a mega billion dollar negotiation.
You do not tell the car salesmen why you want to buy their car.
Do agree that NRT overfly drives much of the product decision.
You do not tell the car salesmen why you want to buy their car.
Do agree that NRT overfly drives much of the product decision.
Mar 12, 2014, 9:31 pm
#42
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Mar 12, 2014, 10:37 pm
#43
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That said, assuming Richard Anderson was correctly quoted, the decision would almost seem to have been made. Of the listed aircraft, the A350-1000 is the only rational 744 replacement, and the B788 would replace the 763s. I suppose if he really wanted to downsize he could go 787-10 for the 744s, but it would cost ~50 seats over the A350. Assuming that Airbus goes for a A332 NEO that would be an option for the 763s as well, but then again Delta already has 788s on order.
But as exwannabe noted, it is all negotiations. We'll probably see 50 777s come out of this....
Mar 12, 2014, 11:21 pm
#44
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According to http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...er-rfp-396954/ the 777-300ER is also being considered.
Mar 12, 2014, 11:22 pm
#45
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NW lost a contract with DHL in 2007, got a new contract in 2008 through 2011, and then DHL withdrew from the US, before coming back in some limited form in 2011.