Delta Air Lines Seeks Premium Status in Asia
Feb 19, 2011, 1:37 pm
#76
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SEA
Posts: 12,485
How does a company announce an ambitious goal, make a statement like this, and in the same week, alienate a significant fraction of their regional customers by egregiously jacking up FF mileage redemption requirements?
How many DL customers in the region would select "reputable" as their adjective of choice to describe DL right now?
What sort of "intellects" are running DL?
How many DL customers in the region would select "reputable" as their adjective of choice to describe DL right now?
What sort of "intellects" are running DL?
Less successful airlines have a less competitive product that they give away because there are not enough customers willing to pay. Because they take in less cash, they can't afford to improve their product, perpetuating a viscous cycle.
So, to answer your question, DL appears to be run by people who understand how a successful business works.
Feb 19, 2011, 2:33 pm
#77
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: ATL
Programs: DL-DM/2.1 MM; Marriott - Plat/LT Gold, Hyatt - Plat, SPG Plat
Posts: 22
What the Article Says, What Delta Needs to Do
The NYT article appears to be nothing more than a way for Delta to get coverage of steps they have taken to improve their product and coverage into Asia. In other words, all long haul flights will have true flat-bed seats (pods) by 2013; new routes are being added to Beijing and Shanghai; and as an added bonus they've removed the expiration dates on frequent flyer miles. The article says they want to be a "premium" airline in Asia, and these are the examples given. End of story.
Will those changes be enough to join the ranks of Singapore Air (SQ) and Cathay Pacific(CX)? Most definitely not.
Right now the DL product is about on par with Korean Air (KE), and the addition of lie-flat pods on all TransPac flights will nudge them ahead of KE if KE does not do likewise with their business class product. I have no experience with the KE coach product, but I suspect it is better than the DL coach product. There is little to differentiate the service of these two airlines when flying Business Class (BE) across the Pacific. Some might note that KE has younger flight attendants, which is true, but my experience is that the service provided by DL is on par with KE in BE.
Okay, so what does DL need to do to become a premium airline in Asia?
1. Add a First Class product. They'll never be in the same league as SQ and CX without having a true first class. Business elite is nice, and all that most of us can swing with $ or SWU upgrades, but it is not FC.
2. Flight attendants will need to be on par with SQ and CX. These airlines have different hiring standards than the US airlines, and their crews both provide better service and present a much better physical appearance.
Surliness, a characteristic still exhibited by some of the NW old-guard, is not experienced on the Asian carries. Plus, its can be a shock to board an American (or European) airline after spending time in Asia, the poorer physical condition of the Western crews and passengers smacks you in the face.
3. Have a totally modern fleet. No old 767 or 757 aircraft, and the 777, A330, and 747 products (plus new additions) need to be state of the art in all aspects. Lie-flat pods on all TransPac flights does not raise DL to the level of "premium". The coach product needs to be upgraded significantly, and all seat and entertainment systems (coach, business, and first class) need to be state-of-the-art.
Will DL ever be "Premium" in Asia? Doubtful, but the path to getting there is not all that complicated. New/better aircraft, new/better crews, and a true FC product would take them a lot of the way there.
Will those changes be enough to join the ranks of Singapore Air (SQ) and Cathay Pacific(CX)? Most definitely not.
Right now the DL product is about on par with Korean Air (KE), and the addition of lie-flat pods on all TransPac flights will nudge them ahead of KE if KE does not do likewise with their business class product. I have no experience with the KE coach product, but I suspect it is better than the DL coach product. There is little to differentiate the service of these two airlines when flying Business Class (BE) across the Pacific. Some might note that KE has younger flight attendants, which is true, but my experience is that the service provided by DL is on par with KE in BE.
Okay, so what does DL need to do to become a premium airline in Asia?
1. Add a First Class product. They'll never be in the same league as SQ and CX without having a true first class. Business elite is nice, and all that most of us can swing with $ or SWU upgrades, but it is not FC.
2. Flight attendants will need to be on par with SQ and CX. These airlines have different hiring standards than the US airlines, and their crews both provide better service and present a much better physical appearance.
Surliness, a characteristic still exhibited by some of the NW old-guard, is not experienced on the Asian carries. Plus, its can be a shock to board an American (or European) airline after spending time in Asia, the poorer physical condition of the Western crews and passengers smacks you in the face.
3. Have a totally modern fleet. No old 767 or 757 aircraft, and the 777, A330, and 747 products (plus new additions) need to be state of the art in all aspects. Lie-flat pods on all TransPac flights does not raise DL to the level of "premium". The coach product needs to be upgraded significantly, and all seat and entertainment systems (coach, business, and first class) need to be state-of-the-art.
Will DL ever be "Premium" in Asia? Doubtful, but the path to getting there is not all that complicated. New/better aircraft, new/better crews, and a true FC product would take them a lot of the way there.
Feb 19, 2011, 4:13 pm
#78
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,353
I'm really loving some of the comments above, I am no apologist, but some of the things being said are obviously either from people with limited experience of the airlines they speak about, or perhaps none at all.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
Feb 19, 2011, 6:31 pm
#79
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Meechigan
Posts: 1,006
I'm really loving some of the comments above, I am no apologist, but some of the things being said are obviously either from people with limited experience of the airlines they speak about, or perhaps none at all.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
Feb 19, 2011, 11:21 pm
#81
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,205
Most definitely not.
KE - DE
* amenity kit + slippers in coach - nothing
* toothbrushes and tootpaste in lavatories in coach - nothing
* lavatories cleaned and freshened every hour - lavatories never cleaned during flight
* professional FAs - surly FAs
* good looking and smelling FAs - no comment
* good food in coach, excellent in business - mediocre food at best (both classes)
* best seting in coach of any airline (personal opinion) - inferior seating in coach
* good seating in business (angled lie flat) - good seating in business (angled lie flat) on pm-NW planes only, but awful on the horrendous DL 767s that many routes have been now downgraded to
How does this make DL come even close to KL?
I think that DL's most ambitious aspiration may be to come closer to KE's service, but it can never feasibly match it - DL is simply way too cheap and dull to its customers comfort and needs to do so.
KE - DE
* amenity kit + slippers in coach - nothing
* toothbrushes and tootpaste in lavatories in coach - nothing
* lavatories cleaned and freshened every hour - lavatories never cleaned during flight
* professional FAs - surly FAs
* good looking and smelling FAs - no comment
* good food in coach, excellent in business - mediocre food at best (both classes)
* best seting in coach of any airline (personal opinion) - inferior seating in coach
* good seating in business (angled lie flat) - good seating in business (angled lie flat) on pm-NW planes only, but awful on the horrendous DL 767s that many routes have been now downgraded to
How does this make DL come even close to KL?
I think that DL's most ambitious aspiration may be to come closer to KE's service, but it can never feasibly match it - DL is simply way too cheap and dull to its customers comfort and needs to do so.
Feb 20, 2011, 1:25 am
#82
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: DL Platinum
Posts: 556
Most definitely not.
KE - DE
* amenity kit + slippers in coach - nothing
* toothbrushes and tootpaste in lavatories in coach - nothing
* lavatories cleaned and freshened every hour - lavatories never cleaned during flight
* professional FAs - surly FAs
* good looking and smelling FAs - no comment
* good food in coach, excellent in business - mediocre food at best (both classes)
* best seting in coach of any airline (personal opinion) - inferior seating in coach
* good seating in business (angled lie flat) - good seating in business (angled lie flat) on pm-NW planes only, but awful on the horrendous DL 767s that many routes have been now downgraded to
How does this make DL come even close to KL?
I think that DL's most ambitious aspiration may be to come closer to KE's service, but it can never feasibly match it - DL is simply way too cheap and dull to its customers comfort and needs to do so.
KE - DE
* amenity kit + slippers in coach - nothing
* toothbrushes and tootpaste in lavatories in coach - nothing
* lavatories cleaned and freshened every hour - lavatories never cleaned during flight
* professional FAs - surly FAs
* good looking and smelling FAs - no comment
* good food in coach, excellent in business - mediocre food at best (both classes)
* best seting in coach of any airline (personal opinion) - inferior seating in coach
* good seating in business (angled lie flat) - good seating in business (angled lie flat) on pm-NW planes only, but awful on the horrendous DL 767s that many routes have been now downgraded to
How does this make DL come even close to KL?
I think that DL's most ambitious aspiration may be to come closer to KE's service, but it can never feasibly match it - DL is simply way too cheap and dull to its customers comfort and needs to do so.
RealHJ is dead on when it comes to the catering as well. For those who are afraid of Korean food, perhaps KE's catering is only moderately to much better than DL's catering in economy. However, KE's Korean food for those willing to try it are some of the best meals I have eaten in economy on any airline. The food is fresh, tasty, and filling. I don't know where to even begin with the food in business. It would be like comparing Ruth's Chris' ribeye to Ruby Tuesday's. Yes, they are both ribeyes, but they are not even close. There is no way I would order a steak on DL after 2 or 3 hockey pucks I have been served. On KE, the FA can actually cook a steak medium-rare. And the first time, she even offered to mix me some Worcestershire sauce and horse radish together. It was delicious for those interested. DL also serves Cup 'O Noodles between meals on long haul flights. Korean serves ramyeon noodles, so I was expecting something from a styrofoam container. But no. Not on Korean. Out comes a bowl with noodles, fresh vegetables, and an egg. So, yes, both airlines offered noodles between flights. Again, Ruth's Chris vs Ruby Tuesday.
Yes, we can all complain about DL's FAs. I do. But, I do appreciate equal opportunity laws in the United States. One of the major differences we have to remember is that being a KE FA is a very highly regarded job in Korea. Being a DL FA carries not-a-lot of regard in the United States. I point this out only to suggest that the KE FAs feel a lot better about themselves than the DL FAs do overall. And people who feel better about themselves are able to treat others better. I have never had a bad experience with a KE FA. And, I don't mind being called "honey" or "sweetie" from time to time either.
I'm not saying DL is terrible; in fact, I think they are far superior to UA, and let's not think about US. I still fly DL. They are pretty good for an American flagged carrier. But, I am saying Delta is no Korean Air.
Feb 20, 2011, 2:29 am
#83
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Up in the Air
Programs: DL MM; UA MM/1K
Posts: 613
For an airline that won't serve you a hot meal in FC on flights shorter that 1,500 miles (something you get on any domestic flight longer that 2 hours in India when flying coach) DL seems to have a high self esteem.
I guess there are some people there who still beleive DL is best in class...
Happy and Luxurious Travels
DLP
I guess there are some people there who still beleive DL is best in class...
Happy and Luxurious Travels
DLP
Feb 20, 2011, 3:25 am
#84
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LAX/BOS/HKG/AMS/SFO...hmm, I need a life.
Programs: United1K, AA ExPlAAt, DL MM/Gold, Hilton Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 13,316
For an airline that won't serve you a hot meal in FC on flights shorter that 1,500 miles (something you get on any domestic flight longer that 2 hours in India when flying coach) DL seems to have a high self esteem.
I guess there are some people there who still beleive DL is best in class...
Happy and Luxurious Travels
DLP
I guess there are some people there who still beleive DL is best in class...
Happy and Luxurious Travels
DLP
Feb 20, 2011, 10:01 am
#85
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 3,359
To be fair, Delta's IU.S. domestic offering is comparable to their U.S. domestic competition...
The point of this thread is that Delta's international/Asia offerings are sub par compared to their Asian competition and their claim to want to be a "premium carrier" in the Asia market is such a reach it borders on delusional...
Feb 20, 2011, 10:49 am
#86
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,057
JL happens to be my favorite airline (I haven't flown many European or Middle Eastern carriers, but am familiar with most North American and Asian airlines in all classes). Ex-NRT, the F catering is simply astounding IMO (and I'm not one to get excited over airplane generally speaking), the beds are more comfortable than many hotels, the service is extremely attentive, and the massages in the lounge are cool (TG offers the same service). While I agree that C isn't all that, for some reason I always emerge from my C flights well rested and in a good mood.
Feb 20, 2011, 12:32 pm
#87
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SEA
Posts: 12,485
All the complaints about DL's hard product are valid, but most posters complaining about the inferior hard product are seeming to be ignoring one of the main points of the article: the hard product is being upgraded in both cabins to be competitive with international carriers.
Feb 20, 2011, 12:40 pm
#88
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: msp
Programs: AA PLT 3MM, DL PM 2MM
Posts: 1,142
I'm really loving some of the comments above, I am no apologist, but some of the things being said are obviously either from people with limited experience of the airlines they speak about, or perhaps none at all.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
MH?? Maybe a decade ago was a great airline, it is NOT today, and while their lounge9s) at KLIA may be nice, their seats, service, even the cleanliness of their planes has gotten worse and worse every year, none of my Malaysian friends will step foot on their planes anymore and I avoid them when I can.
SQ? Yes of course, overall it is better, but I love some of the stereotypes which can only be related by those with very limited experience in flying the airline. Yes the FA's are prettier, younger and on the surface nicer than their counterparts at other airlines, however experience any real issues and either the "does not compute" face appears, or they go into an Orwellian stupor where they try to do the "rules and regulation" thing which is very Singaporean. Also I should add that while at least DL is trying to standardize its premium product SQ flies a whole slew of J/F configs and it is very possible to to 12 hour flights on an SQ plane to SIN on an a/c w/o F and Biz seats which are out of the mid-80's.
KE - Has made huge strides in recent years, and is much better now than 5 years ago. That being said, their catering in J and F is often subpar.
JAL? is that a joke? They may have a great domestic seat, but I have always found their long haul biz seats substandard and service lacking (or again, to the untrained western eye, it looks great, but has little substance behind it).
CX? In my opinion they are the airline to beat and is probably one of the only airlines left that I look forward to flying with.
TG? Hit or miss. They can be great, they can be poor.
Chinese carriers? Ha.
Feb 20, 2011, 2:03 pm
#89
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wayne, PA USA
Programs: DL MM, Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium, HHonors Gold
Posts: 7,242
Feb 20, 2011, 2:11 pm
#90
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,353
No, there are a lot of things that DL can do to improve their product, but comparisons have to be made in the real world, from those who really fly these airlines regularly, and not the obvious impressions of those with limited experience or (jodging by a post or two) none. Regarding KE FA's? Highly esteemed position? Perhaps higher that Americans hold their FA's, but I would say that Korea is only about 20 years behind in such perceptions, and believing anything else is a bit preposterous. Regarding KE business class ervice, this is the airline which until very recently had NO amenity kit in Biz at all, and whose food selections in long haul biz has always consisted of mediocre Western Food and Bimimbap, which while I like it is in fact an insult to Business passengers everywhere. Furthermore any airline which at times can subject its entire passenger body to a two hour recitation of every item in the Duty Free catalogue over the PA in multiple languages insults my intelligence.
Moondog makes a great post, JAL may have a wonderful F, I have not flown it so cannot comment, however I have flown their int'l long haul Biz product on many occasions and it is nothing special.
BTW, I also love the comments about the surly, unprofessional, whatever FA's on Asian routes that some people cite, keeping in mind that to date the vast maojority of these are former NWA FA's.............
Also I wanted to speak about the fallacious NCE post above. Having flown in and out of NCE with Pan Am going back to the early 80's and DL up until the present day, I agree with the subsequent poster that the woman who ran the operation all that time and for quite awhile after DL took over the route were in fact the exact same people. Which is really quite a feat considering that it is a flight which way back when was only a tag to a FCO flight and even in recent years has gone seasonally down to 4 or 5 a week.
Moondog makes a great post, JAL may have a wonderful F, I have not flown it so cannot comment, however I have flown their int'l long haul Biz product on many occasions and it is nothing special.
BTW, I also love the comments about the surly, unprofessional, whatever FA's on Asian routes that some people cite, keeping in mind that to date the vast maojority of these are former NWA FA's.............
Also I wanted to speak about the fallacious NCE post above. Having flown in and out of NCE with Pan Am going back to the early 80's and DL up until the present day, I agree with the subsequent poster that the woman who ran the operation all that time and for quite awhile after DL took over the route were in fact the exact same people. Which is really quite a feat considering that it is a flight which way back when was only a tag to a FCO flight and even in recent years has gone seasonally down to 4 or 5 a week.