stephem

Neither DL nor NW as its predecessor for Asia operations really had anything better than just an average product. I use it a lot and think it's a perfectly fine, but average product. I would even assert that DL took a slight step backwards when it put older 767s on some of the Asia transpacs.
Having been right smack in the middle of the turf they are trying to get "premium" status in, I can say they have an uphill battle. SQ and CX are both so far out in front of DL, DL is really just getting a critical mass of first gen lie flat seats, but to top it off, they don't even have a first class.

DL has strong corporate relationships (which it inherited from NW) which are responsible for filling up at least half of it's premium cabins on these Asia routes. Those customers are driven by discounts (which exceed 50% in some cases) not premium status. Keep dreaming DL....

Unimatrix One

Yep, and NH's domestic F seat, while not as nice as JL's, also offers 50 inches of pitch.

REALLY?? What a huge, obvious mistake!! What Japanese elite flyer in his/her right mind would use DL when JL (oneworld) and NH (star) offer free lounge access and DL doesn't?? Huge, huge, huge mistake by DL...

But more important than the seats and other physical facilities are the vast difference in culture between DL and Asian carriers. In order to come anywhere near JL/NH, DL will have to invest huge sums in formal training for its crews and will have to institute a real service culture that has FAs acting like they actually care about their customers. Given the strength of the unions, seniority rules, and difficulty in holding FAs accountable for their level of service, I don't see this happening at all.

And the other thing DL will have to do is actually clean its planes well. JL and NH planes are immaculate -- even the lavatories. DL (and other US airlines) aircraft are often filthy.

Unimatrix One

OK, I could not let this one go. Don't get me started on the seat belt sign. US carriers habitually abuse the sign by turning it on at the slightest vibration and then leaving it on continuously through hours of perfectly smooth flight. I was once on a NRT-EWR flight where the sign was on for 10 hours straight. You never know whether you can really get up to use the restroom (or if the FAs will scold you for doing so) or not. On the Japanese airlines (JL and NH), the pilots don't turn on the seat belt sign unless it's actually needed (what a concept). So 95% of the time, the sign is off and you can wander around freely.

RealHJ

The West Coast? Really? SEA and PDX have been always semi-hubs for NW, but DL has been practicaly absent.

Pre-merger NW had 2 x daily SEA-HNL, and also SEA to KOA and OGG.
After merger DL has just 1 x daily SEA-HNL.
That's just an example to show how after merger ther is far less of "new" Delta presence, as there was before of just NW.

RealHJ

That is true though, I have to agree. On a 12h JL flight, once it went off the seatbelt sign didn't go back on until the plane was well into descent. So refreshing for a change for it to actually mean something, vs. having it on when it's not really needed and thus ultimately forcing pax to practically ignore it.

cerealmarketer

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Some people eluded to it above -- but Asia is not homogenous. Who is used to premium service -- those who go through the established financial centers -- HKG, NRT, SIN.

China's airlines have a terrible reputation for quality. Yet intuitively that is where most of the air traffic growth will come from.

Who can take you from China to the US nonstop .... not CX or SQ. But Air China and US airlines that have the rights.

We know schedule and fare are the top considerations for flying. So to win China Delta needs a more route authorities and do better on quality than US carriers and Air China out of Beijing and Shanghai. A different bar.

There's a long way to go on DL quality but those routes don't hurt.

motytrah

They eventually reverted....the next program year.


I've noticed that on JL and NH they have an FA put on a cleaning uniform and go around to all the bathrooms at least once during the flight.

n301dp

I think you've already been called out on your West Coast inaccuracy. It bears repeating.

NW also had a share (get it...golden share?) of Continental, with connections that were nearly as seamless as the merged DL/NW are now. Where NW wasn't able to go for me (Bogota), I was able to hop on CO/CM, and get UGs to boot!

The comments about NW not being global until they merged with DL are quite asinine, considering their other agreement with KLM, which covered all of Europe. I think many DL fliers have found out the hidden secret that is connecting in AMS as opposed to JFK or CDG--there really is no comparison.

Jaimito Cartero

I don't think DL airplanes or onboard service are bad, compared to other US carriers. They've got a huge way to go to get close to the Asian carriers I've flown on. Specifically SQ, MH, KE and CX. Even many European carriers, LH, KL and AF are a couple of notches above DL, service-wise.

And for the carriers that have real FC international service, don't even bother trying to compare them.

SamOF

I think you've hit on the real meaning of this—not "premium enough" to compete with most Asian airlines on many routs but premium enough service to make non-stops to China or odd point-to-points like SEA-KIX very competitive.

RealHJ

On KE the lavatories are cleaned every 1-2 hours (not sure, but for sure is at least every two hours, if not once every hour) by the FAs, the toothbrushes and moutwash are replenished there more frequently, etc. And, that is in coach, on a short 6 hour flight.

KE is far superior to JL in terms of service, IMO.
KE is better in coach for a short 6 h flight than JL in business for a longer 12 hour one (service wise, having little things like amenity kits (KE has it in coach, JL does not have it in business), toothbrushes/toothpase/mouthwash in lavatories always available, etc.).

Burj

Actually according to the PIA (Pakistan International Airlines) website:

"On 29th April, 1964, with a Boeing 720B, PIA earned the distinction of becoming the first airline from a non-communist country to fly into the People’s Republic of China"

http://www.piac.com.pk/pia_about/pia-about_history.asp

Unimatrix One

Hmmm, let's see... typical Y seat vs. lie-flat, coach menu vs. 4-course meal served on china and linens, typical meager Y snacks vs. a la carte menu with 10 snack and meal choices (both hot and cold) available anytime during the flight, lav-to-passenger ratio that is 2 or 3 times higher, FA-to-pax ratio that is 2 to 3 times higher, slippers vs. no slippers, cardigans vs. no cardigans, champagne, vintage wines, etc. etc.

I think you get the picture... I doubt many will agree that KE Y is better than JL C.

jimrpa

Here's a question for the folks who pine for the "good old days" - If NWA was such a strong player in the Asian market with such a widely recognized, and respected brand: Why did NWA go through an expensive rebranding effort at a difficult time to remove all vestiges of "Orient" from their identity and to change their logo (which presumably would be easier for people who don't use Latin alphabets to recognize)?

Something just doesn't make sense in the arguments being presented.

ClipperDelta

But DL only flew NRT-PVG and NRT-PEK during this period, and only with one daily flight in each market. And NRT-PEK was even downgauged from an A330 to a 763ER. So even if NRT-PEK or NRT-PVG was full every day of the year (which it wasn't), it wouldn't even begin to account for 10% of the increase in DL's TPAC traffic.

The West Coast is more than just the Pacific Northwest. In fact, since we're talking about Asia here, there are two markets south which are far more significant gateways to the TPAC market. In SFO, both DL and NW were weak. In LAX, PMNW had Hawaii flights, LAX-NRT, and then flights to the the hubs and focus cities. Not exactly a robust presence. Not saying that DL was a huge LAX player pre-merger either, but to try to say that DL did not exist in North America except for the Southeast is pure nonsense, especially since DL at least had a Western hub (SLC) with its own metal.

The fact that NW needed KLM to be global might give you a nice indication that the NWA standalone brand had a hard time going global. Delta standalone couldn't either, and nor could AA or CO. Every one of them (perhaps with the exception of United, which had more breadth and scope than the others) was strong somewhere but weak elsewhere. That is why consolidation has been good for the US carriers and is finally allowing the US to have true global brands with a strong domestic foundation.