moondog

I wouldn't say you're the exception, necessarily. Like you, I also had a great run on NW booking 25k awards and getting upgraded. I also did pretty with DL until recently.

However, based on my recent attempts to book awards under the 3-tier system, I'm increasingly convinced that the bean counters are intent upon pushing the value of miles as close to 1 cpm as possible.

That having been said, I appreciate the fact that hub customers have two things going for them when booking with miles:

1) ability to overcome hub premiums
2) no need to find seats on xxx-ATL in addition to ATL-yyy

mooper

For *you*, maybe not. I, and perhaps others, might gladly spend 25K DL miles (or $750 if the 3 CPM didn't appeal) and save three wasted hours instead of paying $450 for a ticket that wastes them. Also, the premium you cite is inaccurate, as the next cheapest option without strings (no hotels required, etc.) attached was a connecting itinerary for $450.

I understand that including hotel nights as a requirement is comparing apples to oranges. Specifically, you ignored my question regarding whether anything I said was inaccurate regarding the exact flights scenario I outlined.

Nonstop flights without strings (hotels, or other downsides) were *not* available for less. I will ask you directly once again: Is this untrue?

Requiring a hotel (especially when it might not be needed), requiring a connection both ways that require hours of extra time, and purchases that may not work out with an assigned seat for a known price are all examples of shortcomings. One or more of these are involved with the supposedly comparative flights you continue to cite.

Some of us don't consider tacking on potentially undesirable hotels and/or extra hours playing the game better.

GUWonder

Only in a delusional world is tacking on a hotel considered undesirable when it lowers the cost of the trip substantially (e.g., enough to drive down the cost of the ATL-IAD-ATL trip to well below $250 all-in) and you don't even need to stay at the hotel.

mooper

As I said, the hotel is *one of several* possible downsides that make your comparisons apples-to-oranges.

When the hotel is involved -- What if I plan to stay with family when in DC? What if my business arrangement involves my client picking up my hotel but not my airfare? What if I prefer to stay at a hotel not bookable combined with airfare, or if I don't want the obligations that go with combining with a hotel booking? What if I own a home/condo in DC and don't need a place to stay at all?

Additionally, you compared the ability to take a nonstop flight for 25K miles with no strings attached (hotel or otherwise) to an itinerary with connecting flights requiring several extra hours, and you think these are the same thing?

Next thing I know, you'll be suggesting that there are ways to save even more money by sleeping on a park bench and jumpseating.

GUWonder

Did you even read what I posted? You certainly don't seem to understand what I posted. I will make it even more simple for you. You are not required to stay in the hotel booked, so how in the world is a hotel booked in conjunction with an airfare one of several "downsides" for you when the conjunction booking substantially drives down the price for the trip even when you are not interested in checking into any hotel? It isn't "*one of several* possible downsides" for most customers, except in the world of delusions.

mooper

Who isn't understanding? IF someone books in combo and is encouraged to use a hotel that they don't need or prefer, then it is a downside. IF they do not, and are not deterred by the process of backing out, then it clearly isn't a downside in that case. IF they book this combo (using the hotel or not) and accept a connecting itinerary that requires extra hours they would rather not spend traveling, then it is a downside. IF they do not (or if they don't view time spent traveling as undesirable), then it clearly isn't a downside in that case.

Everything "comparable" you cited involved one or both of these *possibilities* (hence the "IF"), and possibly other detracting factors I'm not familiar with.

GUWonder

Not I. But by way of your "if" claims, it sure seems to be you who are having trouble understanding how I found better values than that presented in your false choices; otherwise I don't see any reason you are making this more complicated than it really is for customers to find better values than you present. Or do you find customers getting around being fleeced even on same-day or next-day itineraries to be an anathema to your material interests? I don't find it to be to my material detriment but it sure does help customers to save money when they know how to play this game at least as well as I do.

What is the downside for non-delusional customers in booking a combination hotel+airfare when the hotel+airfare was substantially less than the cheapest standalone airfare you could find and such combination booking doesn't even require staying at the hotel in practice? None, if you understand this game and aren't in bed with DL's short-term financial performance. You even earn miles as usual and get upgrades if so entitled, and the routing is as preferred by the customer.

moondog

Would you mind backing out the hotel component of your package and posting the resulting number? Total travel time would also be appreciated for the analysis in question.

GUWonder

I cannot back out the hotel component of a combination airfare+hotel package without the cost of the non-stop air travel skyrocketing. The airfare+hotel combination for IAD-ATL-IAD departing Monday or Tuesday and returning before Thanksgiving Day was lower than the airfare itself for the nonstop flights and the total price was $221 for the airfare+hotel ATL-IAD-ATL trip. To exclude the hotel on the booking would have led to a substantially higher price than $221 all-in for the airfare+hotel so backing out of it wasn't an option even as no-showing at the hotel (which is prepaid within that $221 airfare+hotel package) is a simple option. Even not pushing the creativity button, $421 was easily doable for an airfare+hotel package. No-showing at the hotel doesn't affect the air travel reservation, nor does no-showing at the hotel result in an increase in the cost of the air portion of the trip.

This is the way we routinely get around the high fares for "sudden" personal domestic travel -- even for the non-stop flight choices -- that cannot be booked more than 24-48 hours in advance (if even that) due to personal circumstances.

moondog

By "back out," I meant quote the entire price (using the cheapest hotel option), based on the assumption that the hotel would be tossed. Since I often book LAS trips in this manner, I'm familiar with the game in question.

Basically, if your hotel near IAD ends up costing more than $180 for the throwaway night, then the deal isn't as sweet, especially if you have to hang out in CLT for half a day during the process.

GUWonder

Based on the assumption the hotel was tossed, $221 total price for me. I could see many others having to settle for $421 if just introduced to the game but there's no need to end up even as high as $421 for those who really care to play this game and put a bit more effort into it than just that.

The cheapest hotels around WAS that come up for package deals to IAD don't ordinarily cost more than $180 per night .... unless of course talking about Inauguration Day 2009. It's certainly not a $180 throwaway night during this week.

moondog

Of course they don't. The point of my question was to ascertain the entire price of the package you were quoted, inclusive of the crappy hotel.

GUWonder

My connection to FT is glitchier than DL's website being used for award travel. Check out my delayed edit(s) for the final package price inclusive of all including the junked hotel: $221-421 and no hanging around the likes of CLT for so many (if any) hours during the day.

mooper

Exactly.

Exactly...and that is with a connecting flight.

It isn't just this week that it applies. So I don't get accused of "cherry picking", let's stick with the same city pair and say that I'm looking for a leisure trip this time. I had to stay in ATL to be with in-laws for Thanksgiving, but I want to visit my parents this weekend. (This is all fictional, btw, I don't even live in ATL.) I need to work Friday, so I need an evening flight up there. I want to maximize my time, but I need to be back to work the next Monday, so I want a Sunday evening return. I'm staying with my parents, so paying for a hotel - even paying and then cancelling - is an unnecessary hassle. In just minutes, I can hop onto delta.com and book a 25K coach award for nonstop flights both evenings. I even have a few choices. Alternatively, I can buy those same flights from Delta for ~$730. I'd go with the nearly 3 CPM option via the 25K award, especially as I have PM status and wouldn't need to pay a fee. I could consider buying some connecting flights for $500+, but I'd be wasting precious time on this quick visit.

What would you do?

GUWonder

What does it matter? The total cost of the "combination" trip including the air portion for ATL-IAD-ATL was less than what you were coming up with and it didn't even involve having to stay at the hotel. No downside whatsoever from a customer perspective.

Only if you wanted it to be with a connecting flight. For those who wanted the non-stop flights, they were coming up too.

While I too can find returns of 3 or 3+CPMs even on domestic trips (i.e. something which is more difficult now than it was in early 2008 or 2007 when air travel demand was stronger than it is today), I am not interested in entertaining any more of your cherry-picked hypothetical or other cherry-picked claims meant to try to justify whatever DL management were to do. Given your post's prior espousal of a philosophy that would try to justify whatever abuse was landed upon a victim of (corporate) abuse, there's no use in going any deeper into the psychology of such attempted justifications of whatever DL management would do to the customers of DL management's self-proclaimed "world's best loyalty program". Some people can and will try to justify just about anything or even everything when done by a self-designated favorite. There is no use in wasting time trying to help such people not interested in help; and so I wouldn't waste my time on such barking up the wrong tree repeatedly (as in your unnecessary "even paying and then cancelling" hotel reference which is also not even applicable to what I posted).

If this were my problem, I would've done ATL-IAD-ATL for $221 roundtrip including the cost of a throwaway hotel portion. Whether a non-stop or connecting flight would be selected on such a trip would've depended on whether I cared to accumulate miles from United, Airtran and/or Delta flights or was interested in something else from the ticket(s).