secretsea18

I have never redeemed for a US domestic ticket... instead using my miles for upgrades for intl trips and biz on foreign airline partners. I have wanted to use my miles for biz tickets lately, but am unable to find any trips when/where I want to go for under 400K.

mooper

The problem is that the tickets I cited were ~$750, not $221. Nice try though.

Jaimito Cartero

Do you feel you get a better value out of 4 x 25k for a domestic, or one intl at 100k (Or 120k)? I know that I use most of my miles for very long international trips. With connections and so forth, usually 20-30 hours.

I used 220k miles and $300 in taxes for a RTW award that was over 50k miles. I know I wouldn't have traded 4 or 5 domestic FC awards the same award.

Jaimito Cartero

I hear your pain. It seems difficult to get many DL Biz tickets for low mileage. I found partner awards much easier to get, so you might want to call up and see if those will work for you.

GUWonder

That problem isn't mine -- it was yours -- but the solution was mine. The problem is that the tickets for an ATL-IAD-ATL trip booked yesterday for travel departing Monday (same-day) or Tuesday and returning before Thanksgiving day were being sold for $221 all-in -- including hotel nights -- while DL wanted 25,000 miles or even substantially more for the same kind of itinerary as that with the travel period mentioned by you.

While some might consider 25,000 or 32,500 miles or more for a roundtrip coach trip of this sort valued at $221 all-in to be good value, I wouldn't value it as a good value when those miles are earned primarily or exclusively from flight activity. DL miles are a horrible value but then again those incapable of working the game as well are going to get abused by DL in a way that I won't tolerate.

Indeed it is redemption on partners that still provide a sort of sanctuary to escape from DL's customer-abusing ways -- this way of escaping is a product of those partners not having a three-tier award pricing tool with which to club their ill-informed or otherwise misguided customers.

Mr. Bean

I'm pretty new to DL and the the issues with award redemption are dissapointing or sometimes shocking (charging top-tier elite more, etc.). The nearest airport to me is a DL/NWA hub, but I haven't given them my business because of how difficult it is to redeem for international tickets (F/J/Y). Fortunately, I have the luxury (if you can call it that) of being (almost) equidistant to a CO hub that usually provides whatever non-stops I need.

I find mooper's claims of saving "tens of thousands of dollars a year" redeeming domestic awards a bit amazing.

For one thing, that means in order to save $20,000, averaging "2-3 CPM", one would have to burn 700K-1M miles per year to just achieve that $20K level in value, assuming base value of 1 CPM (forget about actual "saving" over paid tickets).

Even at 45K per domestic F ticket, that is a lot of awards. Hardly impossible, but it sounds like the program caters to a very small subset of travellers (the last minute paid domestic F traveller redeeming for domestic F or travel to/from a captive hub in Y (think ATL, CVG, etc.) ). All the others seem to get shafted.

Also, is it true that most miles are redeemed for domestic awards? I'm more familiar with AA and CO, and most people I've talked with in real life (not FTers or even FFs, really) spend them for international awards (usually Y). Obviously here on FT, international F/J seems to be the gold standard.

GUWonder

Redeeming miles for domestic first class award tickets is not the most popular redemption choice for award travel on any of the major US airlines.

Redeeming miles for domestic coach class award tickets is the most common redemption selection for award travel on DL but these are the very customers who most probably: (a) are getting the lowest return from Delta Airlines whether they know/admit it (yet) or not; and/or (b) are not earning enough miles annually from flight activity for even one award ticket (forget about enough annual travel to earn even one intercontinental trip across the Atlantic or Pacific).

Welcome to Delta Airlines, where management operates the "loyalty" program as if it is today's version of yesteryears' S&H Green Stamps program.

mooper

No airline included in the ITA database was selling a *published* fare under $400 for ATL>IAD>ATL (or ATL>WAS>ATL for that matter) for the dates I cited, when I posted. More germane is the fact that Delta was selling their ATL>IAD>ATL nonstop flights for ~$750, or 25K miles (for a redemption value of around 3 CPM). Do you claim any of this to be untrue?

At your request, I'll gladly provide you daily examples of many flights where DL miles may be redeemed for a value of 2+ CPM (often 3+).

I've showed you over and over how your assertions are false, but you continue to compare apples and oranges. A connecting itinerary is not the same as a nonstop, and not all methods of purchase provide the same assurances. I think you know this, but you insist on trying to mislead people into thinking that they are not able to redeem their DL miles for 2+ CPM through a plethora of routings, dates, and cabins.

Have you compared the award inventory amongst several airlines for the same routes, same days, same cabin? If another carrier provides substantially better options for the same mileage, I'd be surprised.

Your assumptions about my activity are fairly accurate. I burned roughly 1M for about 30 tickets over the past 12 months (many for my employees, but also for me, my family, my friends), averaging over 2 CPM in the past year. I redeem for both cabins, and a wide variety of routes (more going from West to East, but still inclusive of many other patterns). In previous years, my average CPM was sometimes below 2 CPM, but not by much. I typically need to be a bit flexible, but don't run into availability issues frequently.

While FTers may be more likely to redeem internationally than the average loyalty program participant, the avast majority of miles are still redeemed domestically. Delta is a business, not a charity, so if they decide it is in shareholders' best interest to focus on this majority, they are perfectly entitled to do so.

GUWonder

If that is what you came up with, that's not my problem as I've done better repeatedly -- including with regard to ATL-IAD-ATL yesterday. I also suggest that there is gain to be had -- for others even if not for you -- in learning how to play this game at least as well as I do and actually paying attention to what I have posted.

Most customers have nothing to gain by falling prey to DL's abusive ways or being a DL captive, but some others are a different story.

I'm not interested in more of the cherry-picking games when the previous ones submitted by you in this thread have all been available to me for well less than $250 roundtrip. While you have provided no such thing in this thread to-date for me to think the following true too, I am sure that there are daily examples of flights where DL miles may be redeemed for a value in excess of 2+ CPM; however, that 2+CPM redemption value is less and less a given than it was a year or two ago only because DL management has decided to try to maximize its abuse of "loyalty" program customers by way of the three-tier award pricing implementation. DL management has done what it has done even as demand for air travel has fallen substantially.

You have shown no such thing but freely continue to claim the wishful without having yet to demonstrate a single falsehood in any of my posts in this thread.

It is understandable that not everyone will like the due criticisms directed at Delta Airlines -- especially if having material ties to the airline such that the disposition is one of favoring DL management's fleecing of "loyalty" program customers -- but it doesn't make the criticism of DL SkyMiles a criticism based on false assertions no matter the wish.

mooper

Not surprisingly, you didn't answer my very direct question. We both know this is because you are comparing apples to oranges. Delta was selling their nonstop flights for ~$750, and any substantially cheaper itinerary had a *connecting* flight. Maybe you value your time so little that you'd take the trade off, but for those who would not, the 3 CPM redemption value obtained by getting the tickets for 25K miles, last minute, is a superb deal.

The previous ones were similarly not available for the prices you cited. You are quoting itineraries with comparative shortcomings. You may accuse me of lying, but I didn't cherry-pick. I looked up a random sampling of actual routings I've booked in recent weeks and posted them. If I cherry-picked, I'd find some CPM redemptions approaching 4 instead of the common 2-3 range.

Anyone reading closely can see otherwise; I've demonstrated multiple times. I've tired of trying to enlighten you, so feel free to enjoy your delusions.

Mr. Bean

Oh man:

I wonder if that is what you meant...

moondog

Just like you've urged us to refrain from taking the "JL was selling the same ticket I booked for $22,000," bait, I'm going to call you on your repeated attempts to dump the $750 figure off on us here.

Simply put: 3 hours total flight time on DL v. F9 doesn't justify $500 premium.

mnredfox

I guess I'm in the exception. But I've booked some solid trips to Canada, Mexico, and Alaska all for 25K and gotten the EUA as a NW PE. Even better, as a PE got companion UG's as well.

Though I do agree with your rationale, but I'm just making the point that continental flights can be great deals.

GUWonder

I responded very directly to your posts but if you don't care to understand what is meant by my inclusion of hotel nights helping to bring down the cost to well under $750, that's not my problem.

The previous ones -- like your ATL-IAD-ATL trip -- were similiarly available for the kind of prices I mentioned.

I was not quoting itineraries with comparative shortcomings, but you are free to see things however you wish.

Customers who care not to get fleeced by DL should get more familiar with this game -- including with how to include hotel prices -- so as to avoid falling into the trap of the false choice (e.g. $750 DL fare or 25,000-32,500 DL miles) favoring DL management at the expense of most DL customers. There are better options out there -- that don't involve having to choose between false choices -- for most customers, at least if those customers care to get to know how to play the game rather than fall victim to false choices and ignorance. Nothing delusional in what I've posted.

GUWonder

Indeed and it is still possible, which is why above I stated the following: