Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC)
Oct 11, 2018, 2:09 am
#496
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
Our terms are materially similar, but we still get cherry picking.
Because those rates are not published like https://usa.visa.com/support/consume...alculator.html or https://www.mastercard.com/global/cu...ion/index.html or http://www.unionpayintl.com/MainServ...exchangeRateEn , it's very hard to prove one way or another.
13. FOREIGN CURRENCY CHARGES If you make a Charge that is submitted to us in a currency other than Hong Kong Dollars, or if we receive a refund in a foreign currency, that Charge or refund will be converted into Hong Kong Dollars. The conversion will take place on the date the Charge or refund is processed by American Express, which may not be the same date on which you made your Charge or refund as it depends on when the Charge or refund was submitted to American Express. This means that the exchange rate used may differ from the rate that is in effect on the date of the Charge or refund. Exchange rate fluctuations can be significant. If the Charge or refund is not in U.S. Dollars, the conversion will be made through U.S. Dollars, by converting the Charge or refund amount into U.S. Dollars and then by converting the U.S. Dollar amount into Hong Kong Dollars. If the Charge or refund is in U.S. Dollars, it will be converted directly into Hong Kong Dollars. Unless a specific rate is either required by applicable law or is used as a matter of local custom or convention in the territory where the Charge or refund is made (in which case we will look to be consistent with that custom or convention), you understand and agree that the American Express treasury system will use conversion rates based on interbank rates that it selects from customary industry sources on the business day prior to the processing date, increased by a single conversion commission of 2%. We call this conversion rate the ‘American Express Exchange Rate’. The American Express Exchange Rate is set each business day. Changes in the rate will be applied immediately and without notice to you. You can find our rates by calling us at the number on the back of your Card. You may sometimes be offered the option to settle foreign currency Charges in Hong Kong Dollars at the point of sale overseas. Such option is a direct arrangement offered by the overseas merchants and not American Express. In such cases, you are reminded to ask the merchants for the foreign currency exchange rates and the percentage of handling fees to be applied before the Charges are entered into since settling foreign currency Charges in Hong Kong dollars may involve a cost higher than the conversion commission. Since a Charge converted via the merchant or other third party, will be submitted to us in Hong Kong Dollars, we will not apply a conversion commission. The amount of any refund of a Charge made in foreign currency will generally differ from the amount of the original Charge because: (i) in most cases, the rate applied to any refund will differ from the original rate applied to the Charge; and (ii) any currency conversion commission charged on the original purchase is not refunded. However, we do not charge an additional currency conversion commission on the refunded amount.
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 11, 2018 at 2:18 am
Oct 11, 2018, 2:53 am
#497
Join Date: Feb 2001
Programs: IHG Diamond, HH Diamond, BW Diamond Select, Accor Silver, Marriott Gold
Posts: 4,228
First up, I should put a big caveat on which currencies Amex cherry picks on. Dirty floats like RMB/TWD/THB don't get cherry picked. JPY is also cherry picking-free. It's relatively free-float currency such as AUD/GBP/EUR where this happens. So please do not extrapolate your great JPY/USD rate here.
1) Amex rates on average are better than Visa.
2) Variance in rates from mid-rate for Amex and Visa since start of 2017 are almost identical. (sd=.0034 vs sd=.0032)
3) Variance for AUD, GBP, EUR and THB are similar. (sd(all currencies)=.0034 vs sd (THB transactions)=.0028)
None of these things would be true if Amex was cherry-picking bad rates when they can. (Unless Visa is cherry-picking worse rates and doing it more often!)
(I don't remember ever using a company in Japan which even accepts Amex, so I'm certainly not including JPY.)
increased by a single conversion commission of 2%
Oct 11, 2018, 3:27 am
#498
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
Almost all HK V/M are 1.95% on same score.
Oct 14, 2018, 2:47 am
#499
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: China
Programs: OZ*G, Nexus, APEC
Posts: 122
Ping An Bank POS Terminals in China
I just had my first experience with forced DCC in China. The merchant's staff don't know how to opt out. The receipt is from Ping An Bank.
Does anyone know how to opt out on the Ping An Bank terminals in China?
Does anyone know how to opt out on the Ping An Bank terminals in China?
Oct 17, 2018, 6:07 am
#500
Suspended
Join Date: May 2006
Location: HKG
Programs: A3, TK *G; JL JGC; SPG,Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,952
Wanted to add some datapoints from my latest trip to Europe, using a mix of chip and sig, contactless, chip and pin.
Hotels were prepaid and not chains, so no chance to see DCC in action at checkout.
London - No DCC encountered, all charges in GBP without asking.
Eurostar to Paris was interesting, prices for onboard refreshments were offered in both GBP and EUR, with an insane markup on EUR (something like 1.5x to 1.75x the GBP price), but no DCC beyond that.
Paris - Only one instance of DCC in a high end fashion brand shop. Choice was offered on the pin pad and respected, but nearly a 4% markup on FX if accepted.
Spain - DCC is rampant as expected. All restaurants and most shops offered it. When I used my Chip and PIN Target Redcard Mastercard, the currency choice was after the PIN prompt. Markup was generally between 3-4% if accepted.
At the restaurants, I always told the waiters to charge in EUR, and the choice was respected. No BS.
Same with the shops, offered on the pin pad and choice respected.
At El Corte Ingles, using Samsung Pay NFC bypassed DCC, but DCC on regular cards was not forced.
Oddly the Barcelona metro and Renfe also offered DCC, first time seeing it in a mass transit system.
Overall, not as bad as I was expecting after reading the threads here.
Hotels were prepaid and not chains, so no chance to see DCC in action at checkout.
London - No DCC encountered, all charges in GBP without asking.
Eurostar to Paris was interesting, prices for onboard refreshments were offered in both GBP and EUR, with an insane markup on EUR (something like 1.5x to 1.75x the GBP price), but no DCC beyond that.
Paris - Only one instance of DCC in a high end fashion brand shop. Choice was offered on the pin pad and respected, but nearly a 4% markup on FX if accepted.
Spain - DCC is rampant as expected. All restaurants and most shops offered it. When I used my Chip and PIN Target Redcard Mastercard, the currency choice was after the PIN prompt. Markup was generally between 3-4% if accepted.
At the restaurants, I always told the waiters to charge in EUR, and the choice was respected. No BS.
Same with the shops, offered on the pin pad and choice respected.
At El Corte Ingles, using Samsung Pay NFC bypassed DCC, but DCC on regular cards was not forced.
Oddly the Barcelona metro and Renfe also offered DCC, first time seeing it in a mass transit system.
Overall, not as bad as I was expecting after reading the threads here.
and i also ran into a restau in bcn that has dcc many moons ago
Nov 1, 2018, 12:03 pm
#501
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boulder
Programs: AA Plat, CX Silver
Posts: 2,361
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Nov 1, 2018, 12:34 pm
#502
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,068
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Nov 1, 2018, 12:37 pm
#503
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
New one for me: a merchant in Spain told me I would be charged a 2% fee for choosing to pay in euros instead of USD. They gave me no choice and selected DCC even after I protested.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Card was a citi MasterCard. I’ll be filing a chargeback when I get home. I believe the merchant bank was Sabadell.
Nov 1, 2018, 2:00 pm
#505
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,508
I'm not sure if they're even allowed to block foreign cards by law. I imagine we'd have seen more outright blocks if that were the case.
Nov 2, 2018, 6:30 am
#506
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DEL
Posts: 1,057
The recent EU directive banning card fees to consumers also carved out foreign cards. Some of the outfits that used to charge card fees until they got slapped by the EU maintained them for foreign cards--if you book a KLM flight with a European credit card, they obey the law and charge zero, but they get a couple percent if you use an American card. Interestingly I booked a couple SN flights the other day and it asked me for the first 6 digits of my card to calculate the fee... and then charged zero for an American card.
Nov 2, 2018, 9:16 am
#507
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: GEG/DEN/ATL
Programs: UA 1K, TK E+, AS MVPG, SPG&Marriott Plat, HHD, Hertz PC
Posts: 407
Correct, the cap only applies to EU (well, EEA technically) cards.
It's probably not illegal, but it's almost certainly against the terms of their agreement with Visa and MC. I've seen what appears to be that sort of block with some 3rd-party online payment processors in the Benelux; twice in the last week when trying to use American cards online the processor sent me to VBV, I verified the transaction, and then the processor declined it. In both cases a German card worked fine. My guess is that the processors justify this as a fraud-prevention measure since both online retailers are ones that don't ship outside Europe. Blocking foreign cards in person seems much less justifiable, and the only instance I've seen are some UK unattended fuel pumps, which won't even take other EU countries' cards (I'm not counting situations where only a national-network card is accepted like EC in Germany).
The recent EU directive banning card fees to consumers also carved out foreign cards. Some of the outfits that used to charge card fees until they got slapped by the EU maintained them for foreign cards--if you book a KLM flight with a European credit card, they obey the law and charge zero, but they get a couple percent if you use an American card. Interestingly I booked a couple SN flights the other day and it asked me for the first 6 digits of my card to calculate the fee... and then charged zero for an American card.
It's probably not illegal, but it's almost certainly against the terms of their agreement with Visa and MC. I've seen what appears to be that sort of block with some 3rd-party online payment processors in the Benelux; twice in the last week when trying to use American cards online the processor sent me to VBV, I verified the transaction, and then the processor declined it. In both cases a German card worked fine. My guess is that the processors justify this as a fraud-prevention measure since both online retailers are ones that don't ship outside Europe. Blocking foreign cards in person seems much less justifiable, and the only instance I've seen are some UK unattended fuel pumps, which won't even take other EU countries' cards (I'm not counting situations where only a national-network card is accepted like EC in Germany).
The recent EU directive banning card fees to consumers also carved out foreign cards. Some of the outfits that used to charge card fees until they got slapped by the EU maintained them for foreign cards--if you book a KLM flight with a European credit card, they obey the law and charge zero, but they get a couple percent if you use an American card. Interestingly I booked a couple SN flights the other day and it asked me for the first 6 digits of my card to calculate the fee... and then charged zero for an American card.
Nov 2, 2018, 11:33 am
#508
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: LAS/GRU/DUB
Programs: Amex, JPMR, Nexus
Posts: 365
I believe not accepting intl cards online is against the merchant agreement as well. The first company I got my car insurance with in the US would not accept the payment with a non-US issued card online or over the phone. I filed a complaint online with Visa and Amex, as well as had my issuing bank reach out to Amex. Lo and behold, received a call a week later apologizing for their "system issues", and the payment was processed promptly. I've yet to encounter another merchant in the US, in Europe or online, that has an issue with an intl issued card.
Nov 2, 2018, 1:07 pm
#509
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: GEG/DEN/ATL
Programs: UA 1K, TK E+, AS MVPG, SPG&Marriott Plat, HHD, Hertz PC
Posts: 407
AVS can still only verify US/CANADA addresses. I got to sit next to the "card processing manager" for a luxury goods department store on a UA IAD-YYZ. Based on my chat with him, apparently especially the higher end retailers rely more on big data analytics now (https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-pay...ter-1524139200) and that to an extent AVS has become "not so necessary" especially for repeat orders.
Nov 3, 2018, 6:07 pm
#510
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
AVS can still only verify US/CANADA addresses. I got to sit next to the "card processing manager" for a luxury goods department store on a UA IAD-YYZ. Based on my chat with him, apparently especially the higher end retailers rely more on big data analytics now (https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-pay...ter-1524139200) and that to an extent AVS has become "not so necessary" especially for repeat orders.