BruceyBonus

Contacless DCC is becoming more common. I have seen it widespread in Spain. The currency choice is made after the card is tapped.

AllieKat

That's scary. Like chip and signature, it removes the chance for the customer to approve the final total.

Majuki

I believe there was one case of this at ZRH too. At least with a chip-and-signature transaction you can refuse to sign the receipt or mark it as "DCC refused".

Sintaku

That is weird. I haven't used card in Spain in a while (haven't been there in 4 years). I do remember being a moron back in 2009 and allowing the Spanish bank to charge me in GBP for a Euro withdrawal, I bet I ended up getting a really bad exchange rate.

percysmith

I think this is Visa Europe (PSR-402):

● In the AP, Canada, CEMEA, LAC, and US Regions, statement that the Cardholder has been offered a choice of currencies for payment and expressly agrees to the Transaction Receipt information by marking an “accept” box on the Transaction Receipt
● In the Europe Region, statement, easily visible to the Cardholder, that the Cardholder has been offered a choice of currencies for payment (including the local currency of the Merchant Outlet) and that the currency selected by the Cardholder is the Transaction Currency

tmiw

I would imagine that a contactless transaction using DCC would be fairly easy to dispute too, no?

Majuki

If there is a signature waiver or device verified transaction, how would you be able to contest the transaction to voice your dissent? It would be the merchant's word against yours.

At least with a signature receipt you can refuse to sign or deface the "I have been offered a choice of..." wording and write DCC REFUSED! before taking a photo and signing.

There are reports that the Pays successfully dodge DCC but a contactless transaction with a card supporting contactless is still susceptible to DCC. I used Android Pay fairly liberally in Italy along with my CSR and didn't see any DCC, including at the duty free at FCO. For hotels, I used the SPG AmEx, so there wasn't DCC. I tried - and was denied - at Fortnum & Mason LHR that trip the opportunity to use Android Pay, so I couldn't see if I could bypass DCC.

percysmith

Or better, a simple absence of an accept box on merchant slip is prima facie non-compliance of the merchant.

So I'm a bit worried about Visa Europe rules. But I'm far more worried about my trip routing.

BruceyBonus

I saw it quite a bit back in January (on a UK issued Mastercard). I was in Spain again last week and only used my new Visa credit card in a Mercadona supermarket. DCC offered after contactless each time.

Usual scenario: two currencies offered on touch screen, GBP in green, EUR in red. Choose EUR, another screen where you have to confirm. Again, green for DCC, red for no DCC.

Fortunately, you are in control of the machine during the whole transaction in Mercadona, since it is fixed to the checkout. The worrying times are when a portable machine is being used.

TerryK

Was DCC choice on your phone screen or screen of touch terminal?

BruceyBonus

The screen of the card terminal.

The phone (at least in the case of Android) only becomes aware of the transaction amount when it receives notification of the authorisation from the cardholder's bank (via the mobile network or wifi).

generikz

Actually I came to this forum because I noticed a new worrying trend on transactions performed on my HSBC credit cards in Singapore.

I'm using eBay Singapore and pay a flat S$5 monthly fee (in local currency, on a local CC) to eBay Singapore. I've been billed like for years without any issue.

Now HSBC is adding a 1% DCC FEE on each transaction claiming that it's an international transaction and that I should pay fees on it.

Same for Buyee/Tenso from Japan sending an invoice in USD to my Singapore USD CC: suddenly a brand new DCC FEE on no FX conversion at all is being applied from nowhere.

I claimed these fees back to HSBC and they say that, from now on, any non-local entity billing in the local currency will get DCC FEE'd on top of the normal costs.

DC means conversion right? There's none here.
Are we moving back to a world where you can only use your country currency in your own country??

And of course not a single warning that the bank policy has been updated at no point in time.

Their statement:
Julien

percysmith

Citi HK has a similar problem conflating DCC with cross-border transaction/foreign transaction in 2014 https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/12797 #1 .

They backtracked somewhat a year later http://www.citibank.com.hk/global_do...-1/pdf/NOA.pdf

But it still confused the heck out of us - even in May 2017 Citi CS (and I, unfortunately) got confused over which definition should apply https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/21937 #1 and #6

Hongkies have penchant for using DCC as a convenient abbreviation for what is better described as a cross-border fee
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forum.../11968?page=27 #269
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/12874 #3
https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forum...w/17400?page=3 #24

Citi HK and HSBC SG are both technically wrong
What they described is not DCC - it's better described as foreign transaction, cross-border transaction etc.
However, since they have created their own definition of DCC, we are bound by that definition through using their cards.

LchChester asked what's the difference - especially since some merchants practice multi-currency conversion with surcharge (Airbnb) while some payment processors use multi-currency conversion to offer currency selection on their card-present terminals (Valoot)

I noted in the case of "real" DCC, a currency selection has been offered or should have been offered, and a Reason Code 76/4846 chargeback is available.

It seems that Citi HK does have the ability to distinguish now https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/21937 #8 , so I don't get why banks like HSBC SG have to conflate.

I'm pretty sure Mastercard charges at least 0.8%. Some banks claim it's 1% now.
I'm not that sure Visa is doing it even though some banks claim they are https://forum.hongkongcard.com/forumSE/show/11968 . HKMA has not taken action against those claims for now and I doubt MAS will be any better.

P.S. HSBC HK does not collect cross-border fee. And if they do, they definitely need to give 30 days' notice here as a change of banking T&C.

generikz

Thank you for the very details reply/status.

I will try a temporary work-around by moving the billing in SGD to Paypal SG that will ultimately charge it back to the same CC, although from a possibly local entity (Paypal SG).

Same for Buyee, I will only use my Paypal USA account to settle USD invoices from Japan.

I will lose the CC points but I save 1%. HSBC's loss, Paypal's gain.

Julien

percysmith

Think that'll work, Paypal seems to centralise a lot in Singapore (work has been looking into opening a merchant account with Paypal for reasons I do not wish to elaborate, and we've been given tax advise to *not* collect it via Singapore. We're going to meet with Paypal Hong Kong to see if that's possible).