Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchants local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jun 16, 2014 | 1:11 am
#496
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
cxua said his customer copy didn't have the two boxes "(it was the DCC amount of my receipt after signature)". So I presume it's carbon.
Jun 16, 2014 | 2:28 am
#497
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
I noticed in the example of the receipt at A Lorcha that there is a box for a tip, so I'm wondering if that could help avoid DCC? It's not as relevant between MOP and HKD, but take my USD denominated cards and compare to MOP for that receipt. For example let's say the markup was 2.7% like on yours to 72.59 USD (real exchange rate of 70.68). I know that part of the world doesn't have a tipping culture, but let's say I left a modest tip on the 564.30 MOP bill of 60 MOP, write a total of 624.30 MOP, and tick the MOP box. I would be livid if I saw a charge of 132.59 USD, and I don't think the waiter would perform a conversion of 60 MOP to 7.51 USD on the fly. It's also possible they wouldn't enter a tip at all, but I don't think the waiter would forgo one.
Thoughts on this approach?
Jun 16, 2014 | 3:36 am
#498
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
A Lorcha: I had a carbon copy so it was indisputable that DCC was refused.
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
I don't tip with card.
But I think conversion on the fly is very likely - the MOP tip is also converted at the DCC rate manually and a USD tip adjustment applied. Assuming the owner pockets the tip (this is why I leave tips in cash), this is the best way to maximise loot and the chances of keeping it.
The second alternative is maybe the DCC providers want to earn commission on the tip too! Perhaps the fxcked terminals allow for local currency tip adjustment, and will "helpfully" (to the merchant) convert the tip to USD at DCC rate
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
I don't tip with card.
But I think conversion on the fly is very likely - the MOP tip is also converted at the DCC rate manually and a USD tip adjustment applied. Assuming the owner pockets the tip (this is why I leave tips in cash), this is the best way to maximise loot and the chances of keeping it.
The second alternative is maybe the DCC providers want to earn commission on the tip too! Perhaps the fxcked terminals allow for local currency tip adjustment, and will "helpfully" (to the merchant) convert the tip to USD at DCC rate
Jun 16, 2014 | 4:38 am
#499
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
Visa is only interested in papering over potential liabilities to itself.
They can make the DCC providers swear the Test Act
"We, Bank of China Ltd, do solemnly and sincerely in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare, That I do believe, that in the Sacrament of the Visa transaction there is not any transubstantiation of the local currency into the cardholder currency at or after the consecration thereof by any person whatsoever...And I do solemnly in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare, that I do make this declaration, and every part thereof , in the plain and ordinary sense of the words read unto me, as they are commonly understood by Protestants, without any evasion, equivocation, or mental reservation whatsoever"
And BoC will scroll down to the end of the form, click "Agree", and carry on doing what it did before.
They can make the DCC providers swear the Test Act
"We, Bank of China Ltd, do solemnly and sincerely in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare, That I do believe, that in the Sacrament of the Visa transaction there is not any transubstantiation of the local currency into the cardholder currency at or after the consecration thereof by any person whatsoever...And I do solemnly in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare, that I do make this declaration, and every part thereof , in the plain and ordinary sense of the words read unto me, as they are commonly understood by Protestants, without any evasion, equivocation, or mental reservation whatsoever"
And BoC will scroll down to the end of the form, click "Agree", and carry on doing what it did before.
Jun 16, 2014 | 5:10 am
#500
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I have an AmEx Plat, but I don't have a Discover card. I would probably stick to cash for smaller transactions anyway, but how ubiquitous is AmEx acceptance? I feel like it's throwing in the towel somewhat to use AmEx, especially since I started the DCC thread. My wife is a native Mandarin speaker, so she could help communicate instructions. If I end up getting hit with DCC, I will do what the others have suggested. I'll take a picture with my phone, deface the receipt, and dispute with Chase based on the non-DCC amount. If we go, I only expect to be charging large purchases such as hotel (seems like it's not a problem) or upscale restaurants (might be a problem).
BTW, that "it's for your convenience" kind of speech is like talking to your cable company's tech support about connection issues, but at the other end it's a guy knows nothing about tech. "have you tried restarting your modem/have you tried disconnecting your router and use your computer directly/blah blah blah"
But the hold is still in the USD amount. It is changed to a lower amount when it is posted.
At some other places, like Disney, they have info screen up front and you are shown the amount in both USD and HKD. You tell the cashier which currency you choose. I got this in at the latest 2012.
Things have changed?
All the BoC machines in pricey hotels use "cancel button" mechanism to turn off DCC. Maybe the shop/restaurant version is different?
Jun 16, 2014 | 5:14 am
#501
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
A Lorcha: I had a carbon copy so it was indisputable that DCC was refused.
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
Jun 16, 2014 | 5:14 am
#502
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
A Lorcha: I had a carbon copy so it was indisputable that DCC was refused.
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
I don't tip with card.
But I think conversion on the fly is very likely - the MOP tip is also converted at the DCC rate manually and a USD tip adjustment applied. Assuming the owner pockets the tip (this is why I leave tips in cash), this is the best way to maximise loot and the chances of keeping it.
The second alternative is maybe the DCC providers want to earn commission on the tip too! Perhaps the fxcked terminals allow for local currency tip adjustment, and will "helpfully" (to the merchant) convert the tip to USD at DCC rate
AFAIK server made no further input into the card terminal that I'm aware of so it probably was a fxcked terminal.
I was using a local HK bank's card and these banks are very compliance detail-oriented - once presented with a incontrovertible prima facie chargeback case the bank processed a full Reason Code 76 chargeback against the Macau acquirer.
I don't tip with card.
But I think conversion on the fly is very likely - the MOP tip is also converted at the DCC rate manually and a USD tip adjustment applied. Assuming the owner pockets the tip (this is why I leave tips in cash), this is the best way to maximise loot and the chances of keeping it.
The second alternative is maybe the DCC providers want to earn commission on the tip too! Perhaps the fxcked terminals allow for local currency tip adjustment, and will "helpfully" (to the merchant) convert the tip to USD at DCC rate
Jun 16, 2014 | 5:14 am
#503
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
On a side topic, does anyone know which ATM in LA/NYC doesn't charge $3 for out-of-network debit cards?
Jun 16, 2014 | 5:29 am
#505
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
I haven't tried chargeback. All large transactions I use my Amex Plat. In some restaurants where I used my Visa and got DCCed, when I disputed I got the difference back as a form of credit from Chase...
BTW, that "it's for your convenience" kind of speech is like talking to your cable company's tech support about connection issues, but at the other end it's a guy knows nothing about tech. "have you tried restarting your modem/have you tried disconnecting your router and use your computer directly/blah blah blah"
BTW, that "it's for your convenience" kind of speech is like talking to your cable company's tech support about connection issues, but at the other end it's a guy knows nothing about tech. "have you tried restarting your modem/have you tried disconnecting your router and use your computer directly/blah blah blah"
Fight a lie with another lie. Good excuse to get the manager (it did in my case).
But the hold is still in the USD amount. It is changed to a lower amount when it is posted.
At some other places, like Disney, they have info screen up front and you are shown the amount in both USD and HKD. You tell the cashier which currency you choose. I got this in at the latest 2012.
Things have changed?
At some other places, like Disney, they have info screen up front and you are shown the amount in both USD and HKD. You tell the cashier which currency you choose. I got this in at the latest 2012.
Things have changed?
Jun 16, 2014 | 6:27 am
#506
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
At F1RST Tax & Duty Free, I was presented with the option of DCC and refused. The non-DCC amount was held, not the higher DCC amount. This was the same at the cafe in Brisbane with the ANZ terminal.
Jun 16, 2014 | 6:46 am
#507
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
It's true that in HK, DCC only happens where things are expensive or foreigners will visit. The places I've encountered DCC are (but not limited to) Disney, Tom Lee, lots of the stores in Pacific Place and Landmark and Peninsula Hotel Plaza and things like that, DFS, Prince Watch Co., etc. At all those places I had the freedom to choose the currency. Some are pre-print where the choices are given on a keypad, some are post-print where I get a quote slip first (expensive places). The overall experience of mine with HK DCC is pour positive.
I've never been to the bars in HK, so my guess based on you guys' information is that those places may have machines from dirtier acquirers, and since that's where foreign people get drunk, so, you know...
I've never been to the bars in HK, so my guess based on you guys' information is that those places may have machines from dirtier acquirers, and since that's where foreign people get drunk, so, you know...
Jun 16, 2014 | 6:48 am
#508
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Allpoint has a list of surcharge-free ATMs. 7-Eleven is usually a safe bet too.
Last time I visited a 7-11 in Irvine, I think the machine is Citi's, and it did charge the $3.
About this Allpoint, it seems really nice. But what the point of offering fee-free ATMs? How does it earn money, and who does it get money from?
Jun 16, 2014 | 7:48 am
#509
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I was the victim of dcc during my shore excursion from Rostock to Berlin. We stopped at a service area on the autobahn and I purchased about 7 euro worth of stuff. The dragon lady type clerk, surely East German type, had the credit card terminal not on the counter, dipped my card, did not ask me to sign and handed me a receipt. It was only when I got on the coach that I realized I had been ripped off with the statement I was offered the opportunity to pay in local currency. It must have cost me about 40 or so cents.
I will orf course be disputing the charge when I come home and hope the bank has the good sense to charge it back to this scum of a merchant. This spreading cancer must be stopped in its tracks and I will not allow myself to be treated like a sucker in this manner. However, most likely the bank will just credit me the 40 or so cents and not charge it back and penalize the piece of garbage merchant.
I will orf course be disputing the charge when I come home and hope the bank has the good sense to charge it back to this scum of a merchant. This spreading cancer must be stopped in its tracks and I will not allow myself to be treated like a sucker in this manner. However, most likely the bank will just credit me the 40 or so cents and not charge it back and penalize the piece of garbage merchant.
Jun 16, 2014 | 1:06 pm
#510
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: HHonors Gold, Marriott Lifetime Gold, IHG Gold, OZ*G, AA Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 1,944
Is it fee-free for out-of-country-and-out-of-network debit cards as well? Namely Union-Pay debit cards issues in China.
Last time I visited a 7-11 in Irvine, I think the machine is Citi's, and it did charge the $3.
About this Allpoint, it seems really nice. But what the point of offering fee-free ATMs? How does it earn money, and who does it get money from?
Last time I visited a 7-11 in Irvine, I think the machine is Citi's, and it did charge the $3.
About this Allpoint, it seems really nice. But what the point of offering fee-free ATMs? How does it earn money, and who does it get money from?
Allpoint is a network that requires your issuer to participate, so it's not free to everyone. I've got a card that uses that network, but it's US issued. No non-US bank participates in it yet.