Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchants local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Jun 6, 2014 | 7:56 am
#466
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
I am gonna do a comparison, I will use my CSP, Chase United Club, IHG MC, AMEX Plat, and Discover It, to each purchase one item at a Starbucks, which doesn't have DCC for all cards. Then let's see which card has the lowest rate.
I understand they use different rates. But I am curious to know whether it's possible that, at one time, say, Visa rate is better than MC rate, and several days later, Visa rate fluctuates to a position worse than MC rate?
I understand they use different rates. But I am curious to know whether it's possible that, at one time, say, Visa rate is better than MC rate, and several days later, Visa rate fluctuates to a position worse than MC rate?
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=3939&p=7 #59
I bought three boxes of brownies with three cards.
Transaction date: 28 Oct
Merchant: Lotte Supermarket, Seoul
Amount: KRW2,500
Bankcomm Diamond Unionpay
Post date: 29 Oct
HKAB rate: 0.007330
Bankcomm rate: 0.007128
Discount: 2.76%
SCB AE
Post date: 30 Oct
SCB rate: 0.007208
HKAB rate: 0.007320
Discount: 1.53%
Shacom PLK MC
Post date: 30 Oct
HKAB rate: 0.007320
Shacom rate: 0.007192
Discount: 1.75%
I was criticized for not including Visa. So, next trip, one weekend in Bangkok (not same cashier tho):
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=3939&p=7 #61
Amex Gold Charge
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Amex rate: 0.2579
Premium: 0.90%
Shacom PLK MC
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Shacom rate: 0.2591
Premium: 1.36%
Bankcomm Plat Visa
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2575
Premium: 0.74%
Bankcomm Diamond Unionpay
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2542
Discount: 0.55%
Jun 6, 2014 | 8:07 am
#467
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
- if the transaction is dirty float or exchange rate-controlled, Amex does better. Examples: RMB, TWD, KRW and THB
- if the transaction currency is generally free float Amex does badly. Examples: AUD, GBP and EUR
One time I saw a GBP/HKD exchange rate complaint on a AE network card being posted on hongkongcard.com. I found Amex had actually used a intra-day peak rate from four days before the posting date for converting the transaction http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=3939&p=3 #27. So I figured Amex makes a killing when the currency is highly fluctuating and not so much when the currency is flat.
Jun 6, 2014 | 9:43 am
#468
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
I used to use Amex a lot due to earning rates for miles. In my experience:
- if the transaction is dirty float or exchange rate-controlled, Amex does better. Examples: RMB, TWD, KRW and THB
- if the transaction currency is generally free float Amex does badly. Examples: AUD, GBP and EUR
- if the transaction is dirty float or exchange rate-controlled, Amex does better. Examples: RMB, TWD, KRW and THB
- if the transaction currency is generally free float Amex does badly. Examples: AUD, GBP and EUR
Jun 7, 2014 | 8:28 am
#469
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Amex Gold Charge
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Amex rate: 0.2579
Premium: 0.90%
Shacom PLK MC
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Shacom rate: 0.2591
Premium: 1.36%
Bankcomm Plat Visa
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2575
Premium: 0.74%
Bankcomm Diamond Unionpay
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2542
Discount: 0.55%
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Amex rate: 0.2579
Premium: 0.90%
Shacom PLK MC
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Shacom rate: 0.2591
Premium: 1.36%
Bankcomm Plat Visa
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2575
Premium: 0.74%
Bankcomm Diamond Unionpay
Post date: 19 Nov
HKAB sell rate: 0.2556
Bankcomm rate: 0.2542
Discount: 0.55%
This is shown with using Discover on UnionPay network in China. Since the conversion is done by UnionPay when the CNY transaction is posted to 银联国际业务平台 in USD using UnionPay rate, the rate is usually 0.2% to 0.35% worse than Visa/MC/AMEX.
BTW, just did some purchases today using both Visa and AMEX Plat, got almost identical rates.
Jun 7, 2014 | 8:29 am
#470
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Jun 7, 2014 | 12:24 pm
#471
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
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Zyxlsy: that's be cause unionpay issuers in HK forgo foreign currency translation fee (it's 1.95% for v/MC and 2% for ae). Add them back and you'll see unionpay wholesale rate is worse off
Zyxlsy: that's be cause unionpay issuers in HK forgo foreign currency translation fee (it's 1.95% for v/MC and 2% for ae). Add them back and you'll see unionpay wholesale rate is worse off
Jun 7, 2014 | 6:53 pm
#472
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
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Zyxlsy: that's be cause unionpay issuers in HK forgo foreign currency translation fee (it's 1.95% for v/MC and 2% for ae). Add them back and you'll see unionpay wholesale rate is worse off
Zyxlsy: that's be cause unionpay issuers in HK forgo foreign currency translation fee (it's 1.95% for v/MC and 2% for ae). Add them back and you'll see unionpay wholesale rate is worse off
That's why my CSP does a much better job because the fee is 0%.
Do HK banks issue real "no FTF" cards?
Jun 10, 2014 | 11:13 pm
#473
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
First time encountering DCC in Australia. My wife and I sat down at Coffee and Chocolate at a Queens Plaza in Brisbane. The DVD almost happened too quickly for me to react. Now, the fact I was using my US chip-and-signature card helped somewhat because the cashier immediately handed me the terminal to enter a PIN. The cashier looked confused and I saw USD 23.7x. (I forget the exact amount as I was in shock of it happening.) I felt like in the movies where the character realized he had just stepped on a landmine. The cashier said, "Oh. You can press OK." In order to decline DCC I actually had to press the yellow CLR button. Pressing the green OK/ENTER would have resulted in DCC being accepted. The original amount in AUD was $24.15. With the pending charge on Chase's website being $22.67, the markup would be around 4.5%. This was an ANZ terminal. Nice try, ANZ, but I refuse to fall victim to DCC.
I have the customer copy of the receipt which shows AUD abd is free of DCC verbiage. Combined with the pending charge and comparing to Visa's current exchange rate, I think I have safely avoided DCC. After comparing my receipts here is the breakdown of the 12 purchases I've made (all with a Chase Visa) in Australia:
Commonwealth Bank: 3
Westpac: 3
ANZ: 2 (1 tried DCC)
Nab: 1
Suncorp: 1
Unknown: 2 (CityRail and Coles)
I have the customer copy of the receipt which shows AUD abd is free of DCC verbiage. Combined with the pending charge and comparing to Visa's current exchange rate, I think I have safely avoided DCC. After comparing my receipts here is the breakdown of the 12 purchases I've made (all with a Chase Visa) in Australia:
Commonwealth Bank: 3
Westpac: 3
ANZ: 2 (1 tried DCC)
Nab: 1
Suncorp: 1
Unknown: 2 (CityRail and Coles)
Last edited by Majuki; Jun 11, 2014 at 12:31 am
Jun 14, 2014 | 7:04 pm
#474
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I just got all the results back from four purchases using different networks in a Starbucks.
AMEX Plat: (6/12 13:17 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 27; USD amount 4.35; Rate = 6.20689655172
Chase Sapphire Preferred Visa: (6/12 12:01 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 18; USD amount 2.89 (2.89 authorized); Rate = 6.22837370242
United Club Card Visa: (6/12 13:28 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 26; USD amount 4.18 (4.17 authorized); Rate = 6.22009569378
IHG MC: (6/12 12:12 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 18; USD amount 2.90 (2.89 authorized); Rate = 6.20689655172
From Visa Europe:
Visa 6/12 6.228007
Visa 6/13 6.225177
Visa 6/14 6.206708
From MasterCard:
MC 6/12 6.217500
MC 6/13 6.209000
MC 6/14 N/A (I guess this website is for MC US)
I am still confused about how Chase presents the dates. The dates on its website are EST or PST or something?
The problem I see with this experiment is that the amounts are too small to see the difference. But the rates tend to be close.
AMEX Plat: (6/12 13:17 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 27; USD amount 4.35; Rate = 6.20689655172
Chase Sapphire Preferred Visa: (6/12 12:01 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 18; USD amount 2.89 (2.89 authorized); Rate = 6.22837370242
United Club Card Visa: (6/12 13:28 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 26; USD amount 4.18 (4.17 authorized); Rate = 6.22009569378
IHG MC: (6/12 12:12 pm China Standard Time, posted 6/13 (EST?))
CNY amount 18; USD amount 2.90 (2.89 authorized); Rate = 6.20689655172
From Visa Europe:
Visa 6/12 6.228007
Visa 6/13 6.225177
Visa 6/14 6.206708
From MasterCard:
MC 6/12 6.217500
MC 6/13 6.209000
MC 6/14 N/A (I guess this website is for MC US)
I am still confused about how Chase presents the dates. The dates on its website are EST or PST or something?
The problem I see with this experiment is that the amounts are too small to see the difference. But the rates tend to be close.
Jun 14, 2014 | 7:45 pm
#475
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 46,323
Off topic, I haven't checked the USD/CNY fx rates in about a month, and I had no idea that the USD was still so strong.
Jun 14, 2014 | 8:55 pm
#476
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
Yes, I think Chase uses ET. When I was charging in Australia last week the transactions were mostly showing up as pending based on the the time and date back home. For the Visa exchange rate, Chase uses the exchange rate on the date the transaction posts to your account. The pending charge reflects the exchange rate at the time of purchase, but will not necessarily be the amount that posts to your account (unless of course you got hit with DCC).
I saw my second instance of DCC at F1RST Tax & Duty Free at Brisbane Airport. I guess that's to be expected. I threw a bit of a curveball at the system by splitting tender between cash - I wanted to use the rest of my AUD - charging the rest. In fairness to their system, they had a big LCD panel with the currencies and flags. Since I said, "Australian dollars, please!" almost instinctively, I didn't have time to snap a photo or look at what the markup was. This would have been hefty though because they charged a 1.5% credit card surcharge plus whatever the DCC rate would have been. Overall though I am happy to report that DCC was rare from my experience. Only 2 out of 20 purchases had DCC, one was the cafe in Brisbane I mentioned previously - I was surprised with this one - and the other was the duty free store at the airport, which was unsurprising. My purchases spanned hotels, restaurants, cafes, fast food, supermarkets, etc.
One thing that helps matters is that Australia is transitioning to chip-and-PIN in about a month, so all of the cashiers instinctively handed me the credit card terminal. I'm convinced this got me out of the DCC charge at the coffee shop as most cashiers just repeatedly and rapidly press enter until the transaction completes. I was able to stare at the terminal for a good 5 seconds to figure out what to do. The next trip overseas is to Taiwan/HK/Macau/possibly Mainland China, so this was the warm-up.
I saw my second instance of DCC at F1RST Tax & Duty Free at Brisbane Airport. I guess that's to be expected. I threw a bit of a curveball at the system by splitting tender between cash - I wanted to use the rest of my AUD - charging the rest. In fairness to their system, they had a big LCD panel with the currencies and flags. Since I said, "Australian dollars, please!" almost instinctively, I didn't have time to snap a photo or look at what the markup was. This would have been hefty though because they charged a 1.5% credit card surcharge plus whatever the DCC rate would have been. Overall though I am happy to report that DCC was rare from my experience. Only 2 out of 20 purchases had DCC, one was the cafe in Brisbane I mentioned previously - I was surprised with this one - and the other was the duty free store at the airport, which was unsurprising. My purchases spanned hotels, restaurants, cafes, fast food, supermarkets, etc.
One thing that helps matters is that Australia is transitioning to chip-and-PIN in about a month, so all of the cashiers instinctively handed me the credit card terminal. I'm convinced this got me out of the DCC charge at the coffee shop as most cashiers just repeatedly and rapidly press enter until the transaction completes. I was able to stare at the terminal for a good 5 seconds to figure out what to do. The next trip overseas is to Taiwan/HK/Macau/possibly Mainland China, so this was the warm-up.
Jun 14, 2014 | 11:35 pm
#477
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: EWR
Posts: 318
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Billatq: nope. There's definitely no issuer-controlled option to opt out of DCC for visa and MC - otherwise you have all issuers setting no DCC by default which defeats visa and mc's reasons (anti-trust or profit) to set up DCC.
More likely the cashier opted DCC out for you, either due to something you said or input error. But did not do so for your friends.
Billatq: nope. There's definitely no issuer-controlled option to opt out of DCC for visa and MC - otherwise you have all issuers setting no DCC by default which defeats visa and mc's reasons (anti-trust or profit) to set up DCC.
More likely the cashier opted DCC out for you, either due to something you said or input error. But did not do so for your friends.
Jun 15, 2014 | 12:02 am
#478
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 22,113
majuki: glad Australians implemented DCC this way. In Uk (another chip and pin jurisdiction), the DCC selection is controlled by the cashier, not by the cardholder using pin pad.
Jun 15, 2014 | 1:12 am
#479
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,961
But isn't there a way to see the transaction amount either on the cash register's screen or on the PIN pad. If I noticed them trying to pull DCC, I would refuse to enter my PIN. Of course, this only works if cardholder verification is required. We've read the reports of it happening at Burger King in Ireland and the cashiers being "powerless" to stop it.
Jun 15, 2014 | 1:17 am
#480
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
But isn't there a way to see the transaction amount either on the cash register's screen or on the PIN pad. If I noticed them trying to pull DCC, I would refuse to enter my PIN. Of course, this only works if cardholder verification is required. We've read the reports of it happening at Burger King in Ireland and the cashiers being "powerless" to stop it.