Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
May 12, 2014, 6:57 am
#346
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Miami, Nice
Programs: Marriott Titanium, AA Concierge Key, Delta, United, Emorates, and others
Posts: 4,694
In theory, yes, but there is not any useful penalty for failure to comply, or so it seems. In any even there are a tiny number of protests so they could simply refund every protest and still make out extremely week on the deal.
In principle terminal certification and standards ought to protect consumers. In reality that does not always happen. The odd major international bank, a couple mentioned in this thread, do not maintain the regulatory/network releases up-to-date and often fail to provide for such issues as consumer notifications in language of card issue, which is not mandatory anyway. Thus one can have a notification in script that the consumer cannot recognise, for example, and still be technically in compliance. In DCC as in many other related topics YMMV.
It is too bad, isn't it, that nothing is really hard and fast in such issues?
In principle terminal certification and standards ought to protect consumers. In reality that does not always happen. The odd major international bank, a couple mentioned in this thread, do not maintain the regulatory/network releases up-to-date and often fail to provide for such issues as consumer notifications in language of card issue, which is not mandatory anyway. Thus one can have a notification in script that the consumer cannot recognise, for example, and still be technically in compliance. In DCC as in many other related topics YMMV.
It is too bad, isn't it, that nothing is really hard and fast in such issues?
May 12, 2014, 11:27 am
#347
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
While not enough on its own to justify the annual fee, this is certainly one nice benefit to the Amex Delta Gold....
May 12, 2014, 6:29 pm
#348
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 12
Three CC transactions in Spain so far. All three got the DCC prompt but none of them asked me about it. Two charged USD, one was nice and charged EUR. One of the USD shops was a trashy souvenir joint but the other was a pretty friendly and helpful hostel. Honestly, I think there's some confusion about DCC on the side of the merchant as well, so it probably pays not to be belligerent.
How do I say "please charge me in Euros" in Spanish?
How do I say "please charge me in Euros" in Spanish?
May 12, 2014, 7:50 pm
#349
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
Went there last Oct with two HKD Visa cards, said "charge *Euros* please" as if we were speaking pidgin English (we're Chinese) and never got DCCed.
Even remember an instance in El Ingles Cortes where was DCC offered but the cashier already declined it before I could.
Even remember an instance in El Ingles Cortes where was DCC offered but the cashier already declined it before I could.
May 13, 2014, 5:30 am
#350
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
Funny thing. Last Saturday I swiped my CSP on a CCB machine in Beijing. At the bottom of the slip says DCC offer "[ ]Accepted" (seems like something un-ticked), and the amount shows "RMB:238.00". The cashier told me he hit "decline" for the DCC prompt.
However, Chase just confirmed that the transaction was actually DCCed. This is the first time I stepped on a mine while stepping into unknown DCC field (have been DCC free with ICBC and BoC Starbucks machines so far).
So there you have it. The slip, the machine, and the cashier can be that deceitful.
I will try to request a chargeback when the statement comes out. Before, Chase just refund me the difference. Here the difference being $1, I think Chase would do the same thing.
My wife has experience working with CCB and she had told me 建行 in Chinese has the same sounding of 贱人 (.....), and CCB has pretty .....y pricing scheme for banking services compared with other banks in China. Now I am a believer of that.
However, Chase just confirmed that the transaction was actually DCCed. This is the first time I stepped on a mine while stepping into unknown DCC field (have been DCC free with ICBC and BoC Starbucks machines so far).
So there you have it. The slip, the machine, and the cashier can be that deceitful.
I will try to request a chargeback when the statement comes out. Before, Chase just refund me the difference. Here the difference being $1, I think Chase would do the same thing.
My wife has experience working with CCB and she had told me 建行 in Chinese has the same sounding of 贱人 (.....), and CCB has pretty .....y pricing scheme for banking services compared with other banks in China. Now I am a believer of that.
Last edited by zyxlsy; May 13, 2014 at 5:35 am
May 13, 2014, 7:47 am
#351
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
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To teach those ....... banks a lesson, I am thinking of getting the new Wells Fargo Propel World card. The points of Wells Fargo means more to me than Delta Points, as I am sticking to *A.
The other option is AMEX Plat, right? It just doesn't make points at all...
The other option is AMEX Plat, right? It just doesn't make points at all...
May 13, 2014, 8:45 am
#352
Original Poster
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Location: SJC
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Posts: 6,063
AmEx Plat has Membership Rewards, and you can transfer 1:1 to Air Canada, ANA, and Singapore. I don't fly *A often, so I don't know how much a mile is worth in those programs. There is the rumor mill speculating that AmEx waiving FTF is the precursor to allowing DCC.
May 13, 2014, 9:03 am
#353
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
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May 13, 2014, 9:34 am
#354
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In theory, yes, but there is not any useful penalty for failure to comply, or so it seems. In any even there are a tiny number of protests so they could simply refund every protest and still make out extremely week on the deal.
In principle terminal certification and standards ought to protect consumers. In reality that does not always happen. The odd major international bank, a couple mentioned in this thread, do not maintain the regulatory/network releases up-to-date and often fail to provide for such issues as consumer notifications in language of card issue, which is not mandatory anyway. Thus one can have a notification in script that the consumer cannot recognise, for example, and still be technically in compliance. In DCC as in many other related topics YMMV.
It is too bad, isn't it, that nothing is really hard and fast in such issues?
In principle terminal certification and standards ought to protect consumers. In reality that does not always happen. The odd major international bank, a couple mentioned in this thread, do not maintain the regulatory/network releases up-to-date and often fail to provide for such issues as consumer notifications in language of card issue, which is not mandatory anyway. Thus one can have a notification in script that the consumer cannot recognise, for example, and still be technically in compliance. In DCC as in many other related topics YMMV.
It is too bad, isn't it, that nothing is really hard and fast in such issues?
I dunno why Visa Inc/Mastercard International simply withhold payments to Mainland Chinese acquirers til they mend their ways. I doubt they do.
Funny thing. Last Saturday I swiped my CSP on a CCB machine in Beijing. At the bottom of the slip says DCC offer "[ ]Accepted" (seems like something un-ticked), and the amount shows "RMB:238.00". The cashier told me he hit "decline" for the DCC prompt.
However, Chase just confirmed that the transaction was actually DCCed. This is the first time I stepped on a mine while stepping into unknown DCC field (have been DCC free with ICBC and BoC Starbucks machines so far).
So there you have it. The slip, the machine, and the cashier can be that deceitful.
However, Chase just confirmed that the transaction was actually DCCed. This is the first time I stepped on a mine while stepping into unknown DCC field (have been DCC free with ICBC and BoC Starbucks machines so far).
So there you have it. The slip, the machine, and the cashier can be that deceitful.
I think more likely the terminal is programmed to offer a choice, but select DCC no matter what you choose. I dunno how CCB can find programmers so cynical/twisted (running dog beaters?).
This illustrates Chip and PIN terminals can equally be non-compliant.
May 13, 2014, 9:44 am
#355
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
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Posts: 7,161
Withhold payments to Chinese acquirers and let Union Pay gain more market share, versus keeping a blind eye to the DCC issue so as to stay in the lucrative Chinese market, the answer is...?
May 13, 2014, 12:37 pm
#356
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
In the back of my mind, there was a case I believe in Australia I think regarding surcharges on visa/mc cards where they were told it was a restraint of trade. I believe visa/mc are worried the same thing might happen if they tried to ban dcc. Besides, now that they charge for dcc transactions anyway, why should they care?
May 13, 2014, 3:20 pm
#357
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In the back of my mind, there was a case I believe in Australia I think regarding surcharges on visa/mc cards where they were told it was a restraint of trade. I believe visa/mc are worried the same thing might happen if they tried to ban dcc. Besides, now that they charge for dcc transactions anyway, why should they care?
Visa/MC don't want price discrimination based on form of payment. They want the price to be the same as cash price.The reason the DCC scam works more consistently than a surcharge is due to customer ignorance. If people are told, "I'm going to charge you 3% to use a credit card," many switch to cash for small purchases. Just take a look at how many people pay the cash price in NJ at gas stations. With DCC, many customers and some merchants are unaware of the process. Customers might think it's "cool" that they're charged in their home currency, but they don't know they're getting duped on the exchange rate. If merchants were required to list the exchange rate compared to the Visa/MC rate then I think far fewer people would fall victim to DCC.
May 13, 2014, 3:47 pm
#358
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
But now Australia has mandated that businesses can't charge unreasonable surcharges beyond the cost of doing business, which is about 1% for Visa/MC and 2% for AmEx. (I imagine large retailers are well below these amounts.) DCC as of now is unregulated. While the exchange rate isn't as bad as Travelex at the airport, it's almost never better than the Visa/MC rate. I would think Visa and MC would be opposed to DCC for similar reasons as surcharges because if customers knew they were getting ripped off they'd be far more likely to pay cash, especially for small purchases. A meal at your local fast food place that's charging 1% surcharge on top of the 4-5% DCC? No thanks. Visa/MC don't want price discrimination based on form of payment. They want the price to be the same as cash price.
The reason the DCC scam works more consistently than a surcharge is due to customer ignorance. If people are told, "I'm going to charge you 3% to use a credit card," many switch to cash for small purchases. Just take a look at how many people pay the cash price in NJ at gas stations. With DCC, many customers and some merchants are unaware of the process. Customers might think it's "cool" that they're charged in their home currency, but they don't know they're getting duped on the exchange rate. If merchants were required to list the exchange rate compared to the Visa/MC rate then I think far fewer people would fall victim to DCC.
Visa/MC don't want price discrimination based on form of payment. They want the price to be the same as cash price.The reason the DCC scam works more consistently than a surcharge is due to customer ignorance. If people are told, "I'm going to charge you 3% to use a credit card," many switch to cash for small purchases. Just take a look at how many people pay the cash price in NJ at gas stations. With DCC, many customers and some merchants are unaware of the process. Customers might think it's "cool" that they're charged in their home currency, but they don't know they're getting duped on the exchange rate. If merchants were required to list the exchange rate compared to the Visa/MC rate then I think far fewer people would fall victim to DCC.
May 13, 2014, 4:56 pm
#359
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And then to top it off, of course, if they're moronic enough to use a credit card from some near criminal banks like Citibank, Chase, BofA which have their cards for the serfs not paying asinine annual fees tagged with a 3% ftf, they still get socked for that fee even though the clerk is told to tell them an advantage of being dcc'd is no foreign currency fees.
I started this thread to help gain some traction around the issue. I had seen the China DCC thread, but I knew the issue was more widespread than in China, even if merchants in China are particularly egregious offenders in the DCC scam. As we both have mentioned, the biggest problem is customer ignorance of the interbank rate. A quick search online on your phone or that morning at the hotel can allow you to avoid ripoffs. I think far fewer people would accept DCC if the receipt had language noting the "surcharge" DCC often imposes. Consider the following example for a €75 purchase: "I accept the offered exchange rate of 1 EUR = 1.42528 USD for the convenience of being charged in USD. This exchange rate is 4% higher than the card issuer's rate of 1 EUR = 1.37046 USD which is a surcharge of 4.11 USD." In the rare cases where the DCC rate is lower than the Visa/MC rate, the customer could choose to accept DCC. I assume any online terminal that accepts Visa/MC has access to the Visa/MC exchange rate.
May 13, 2014, 7:22 pm
#360
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As with the EMV thing, VISA and MC aren't really effective at policing their own policies, especially when they are for profit corporations where their main motive is to make $$$ for their shareholders.
Withhold payments to Chinese acquirers and let Union Pay gain more market share, versus keeping a blind eye to the DCC issue so as to stay in the lucrative Chinese market, the answer is...?
Withhold payments to Chinese acquirers and let Union Pay gain more market share, versus keeping a blind eye to the DCC issue so as to stay in the lucrative Chinese market, the answer is...?
The Chinese state will inflict pain to their own travelling populace by turning off V/M. Given they don't want to do things to piss off their middle class as of late I'm not sure that'll happen.