Jan 18, 2014, 10:10 pm
Last edit by: emilio911
What is it?
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)
Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.)
Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) is a "service" some merchants and ATM operators offer that will charge a cardholder in the native currency of the card rather than the local currency. A more complete definition and examples are available via this Wikipedia article on DCC. While sold as a convenience to cardholders traveling outside of their home country, it is a pure profit play by the merchants. You may end up paying a fee of up to 8% over the purchase price for accepting DCC. Always decline DCC and asked to be billed in the local currency!
Where will I see it?
You can be hit with DCC anywhere there is a difference between your debit or credit card's denominated currency and the currency of the location where you're trying to use the card. The most common example will be at a merchant overseas, but now some ATMs are offering the service too. While many US cardholders complain about getting tricked into accepting DCC overseas, some merchants in the US have started to use DCC as well.
What is the issue?
Unless you're the merchant or ATM operator, there isn't much benefit to using DCC. Some customers say they prefer knowing exactly how much they'll be charged in their home currency or may not know the exchange rate of the place where they are visiting. For example, if you are in Prague for two days and you don't know how much the Czech Koruna is worth relative to the US Dollar, you might feel more comfortable knowing that you're buying an item for $205.00 versus 4000 CZK. However, the real exchange rate as of January 18, 2014 would place 4000 CZK at $197.18. You just paid an extra $7.82 for the "convenience" of knowing how much you'd be charged!
DCC often charges about a 4% premium over the true exchange rate. The problems don't stop there since many US banks still charge a 3% foreign transaction fee (FTF) for purchases made outside of the US. Not only would you get hit with the $205.00 charge, you could also find yourself facing a total charge of $211.15 if your card has a 3% FTF.
This is a pure money grab from the merchants, and it's billed as an easy way to squeeze additional revenue out of the transaction. Numerous [1, 2] articles have talked about DCC duping many consumers. Discover even has a warning about being tricked into DCC when using a card abroad.
For example, this FlyerTalk member reported that Avis charged his Saudi credit card in Saudi riyals instead of USD for a car rental in Florida without his consent. This has also been a trend for hotels, particularly large chains as indicated here and here.
DCC is simply not worth it for the consumer. Unless you like paying a convenience fee of up to 5% of the total transaction just to know how much you will be billed, you should always decline DCC and ask to be billed in local currency when handing over your card.
Furthermore, it is in your interest to obtain a card that has a 0% FTF. FlyerTalk member kebosabi maintains a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet of EMV-enabled cards ideal for overseas travel, many of which offer a low or 0% FTF as a feature. There is also a wiki at FlyerGuide of various FTF of debit and credit cards.
What can I do to avoid DCC?
American Express currently does not support DCC on its network, so you are safe from DCC if using an American Express card. However, Visa and MasterCard card networks can support DCC, so be vigilant when purchasing abroad with a Visa or MasterCard branded card. There have been reports of being charged DCC with a Discover card in China [citation needed], but primarily the issue is happening with Visa and MasterCard cards.
Before handing your card to the merchant, always specify clearly that you want to be charged in the local currency and that you do not want DCC. For some transactions, you retain control of your card as you dip it into a chip reader and can view on a screen to select which currency you want to use for the transaction. Always select the local currencyto get the best exchange rate. Do not select the card's native currency!
Similarly, for ATM withdrawals, make sure you decline any kind of conversions. Some good examples of what to look for when using an ATM overseas are here and here. You're probably coming off of a long flight and fatigued, but educating yourself beforehand can save you from getting ripped off. The user interfaces on almost all of these ATMs are set up to encourage you to take the bait, and you have to be extremely vigilant not to fall for it.
If you are doing a PIN-based transaction, you should have the opportunity to review the total amount and denomination of the transaction before entering your PIN. If you are doing a signature transaction and the merchant has processed your transaction with DCC, cross out the amount and write "DCC refused" on the receipt. Do not sign the receipt, and demand that the merchant reverse the transaction and run it in the local currency. If no verification is required due to a small purchase amount, ask the merchant to reverse the charge and repeat the transaction using local currency. If all else fails, file a dispute with your card issuer when you return home. Even if it's immaterial, the banks will get the message like they did with EMV.
Some merchants will claim that their systems have to bill you in your native currency. This is a complete lie. But just like a mag stripe only card, this is battle where you have to be prepared. Don't settle for merchants claiming that "it has to be done this way" or "pay cash if you don't want this". Be prepared to walk away, and, if you must complete the transaction, write "DCC refused & merchant didn't give a choice" on the receipt and cross out the amount. Let the merchant know that you will be filing a dispute with your bank.
Disabling DCC
Disabling DCC on ANZ terminals in Australia
ANZ markets DCC as Customer Preferred Currency (CPC). Terminal operators can contact ANZ Merchant Services at 1800 039 025 to have this feature disabled. Currently, your Visa or MasterCard will be subjected to DCC if denominated in: CAD, CHF, DKK, EUR, GBP, HKD, JPY, MYR, NOK, NZD, SEK, SGD, THB, USD, or ZAR. All DCC transactions on ANZ will cause a 2.5% markup. Steps to avoid DCC:
- Insert, swipe, or tap your payment card
- Have the cashier select credit (CR)
- The terminal will display CREDIT ACCOUNT
- If applicable, enter your PIN
- The terminal will display PROCESSING \ PLEASE WAIT
- The terminal will display EXCH <exchange rate> \ <currency> <amount> \ ACCEPT RATE? \ ENTER=YES CLR=NO
- Instruct the cashier to press the yellow CLEAR (CLR) button (If entering a PIN, you can retain the terminal to perform this step yourself. If entering a signature, you can ask for the terminal to control this process, not indicating that it's a chip-and-signature card.)
- The transaction should now process without DCC
If you see a signature slip with DCC verbiage and a checkbox indicating a currency selection, kindly ask the merchant to void the transaction. If it's a PIN-based transaction, you have an additional opportunity to cancel the transaction because it will ask for your PIN a second time. For instance, if you see "EUR 17.29 KEY PIN" refuse to enter your PIN and start again.
Disabling DCC in China
There are many reports of forced DCC in China, and there is a great thread [closed to new posts] on DCC in China on the the China Destinations forum.
Disabling DCC on Bankcomm terminals in Beijing http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #19
jair101's DCC instructions of March 2011 http://www.etveg.com/misc/DCC_China.pdf
Disabling DCC in Eurozone and UK
DCC offered in tourist traps (Harrods Knightsbridge/Galleries Lafayette Montparnesse/El Cortes Ingles Grand Via Madrid)
Unlike the rest of the world, Visa Europe does not require merchants to collect a ticked box on the slip (presumably because merchants there don't keep signed slips under Chip-and-PIN)
El Cortes Ingles collects a signature electronically and the DCC selection is made on the signature pad - the choice is respected.
Harrods and GL rely on cashier input in the POS for the currency choice - the cashier may forget to ask. The POS do not offer voiding (only refunds), but since you're given a slip to sign the best thing to do is to deface it before signing and submit chargeback request to issuer bank on return home.
There may be smaller merchants who also collect DCC but I seemed to have pre-empted most of them by saying "charge Euros (Pounds) please"
In Spain all merchants by law are required to provide you with a complaint form called an hoja de reclamaciones if requested. The form has two carbon copies. The customer retains one copy as a record of the complaint. The merchant maintains another copy, and the third is sent to the local consumer protection bureau. Merchants are also required to post a sign conspicuously informing the customer of the right to complain (usually in Spanish and English). Do not accept the lie that they don't have any forms. This is illegal, and you are able to call the police if the merchant refuses to provide you with this official form. It's interesting to see merchants start to squirm when you know the rules, and most merchants will start to be accommodating after you mention it. (Please still fill out the form even if the merchant cooperates after mentioning it because these are likely the merchants who won't otherwise change their behavior.)
Disabling DCC in Hong Kong and Macau
Hong Kong and Macau can get as non-compliant as China, possibly because many acquirers have cross-border operations and know they can get away with non-compliant firmware and procedures.
In practice, if you are given a DCC slip, and the cashier has not taken a choice before giving you your copy, the slip will be processed in your home currency - be prepared to dispute.
Unable to disable Global Payments DCC in Hong Kong instance #1, instance #2
Unable to disable DBS DCC in Fortress Electronics HK
Unable to disable BoC DCC in Free Duty HK
Disabling DCC in Japan and Korea
Japan's just starting out http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/japan...ing-japan.html and http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=3939&p=17 #168 but there are no reports I know of where cardholders are compelled to use DCC against their will.
Korea is also not much affected by DCC but where offered, trying to opt out is harder than Japan due to the language barrier (both verbal and written)
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=4303&p=3 #23
http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=12272&p=2 #11
Disabling DCC in the Maldives
Disabling DCC on Global Payment terminals in the Maldives
Disabling DCC in Thailand and Taiwan
DCC present but generally not an issue. Cashier will generate quote slip is usually generated and pass to cardholder. When cardholder refuses, a verbage-free slip denominated in THB/TWD will be produced.
Certain Taiwan hotels may take deposits in cardholder currency. But these are only pre-authorisations and can be voided in full for TWD-only final checkout payments.
Disabling DCC on Websites
Airbnb - (Since the "loophole" seem not to work anymore, please report if you chargeback the DCC.
)Hotwire - You need to select your preferred currency before making a search.
PayPal - The instructions to stop the DCC on a recurring charge are here.
I got duped by DCC already before I found this thread. Is there anything I can do?
If you've been hit with DCC and the merchant did not follow the Visa/MC rules, you should file a dispute with your card issuer. Even if the transaction is a small amount, it's worth it to dispute the charge on principle. Do not let merchants get away with this scam uncontested!
If you were not clearly given a choice of currencies and did not specifically communicate a preference to be billed in your card's native currency - if you did not accept DCC - then you have recourse when filing a dispute with your card issuer. The Visa Product and Service Rules clearly state (p 339):
- Merchants that offer DCC must be compliant with the regulations
- Inform the cardholder that DCC is optional
- Not impose any additional requirements to use local currency
- Not use any language or procedures that may cause the cardholder to choose DCC by default
- Not convert a transaction in the local currency to the card's billing currency after the transaction has completed
- Ensure that the cardholder expressly agrees to DCC
You can even use terminology from Visa Product and Service Rules when filing the dispute, giving Reason Code 76: Incorrect Currency or Transaction Code. Reason Code 76 is used when the transaction was processed with an incorrect transaction code, or an incorrect currency code, or one of the following:
- Merchant did not deposit a transaction receipt in the country where the transaction occurred
- Cardholder was not advised that Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) would occur
- Cardholder was refused the choice of paying in the merchant’s local currency
- Merchant processed a credit refund and did not process a reversal or adjustment within 30 calendar days for a transaction receipt processed in error
MasterCard's rules also clearly state that the POI Currency Conversion must be decided by both the merchant and customer. When filing a dispute with a MasterCard, list chargeback Reason Code 4846 from the MasterCard Chargeback Guide, which covers POI currency conversion disputes in the following circumstances:
- The cardholder states that he or she was not given the opportunity to choose the desired currency in which the transactions was completed or did not agree to the currency of the transaction, or
- POI currency conversion took place into a currency that is not the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when the goods or services were priced in the cardholder's billing currency, or
- POI currency conversion took place when cash was disbursed in the cardholdeer's billing currency.
You do have a choice of currencies. Exercise that choice!
Do not get taken by surprise when faced with DCC, and know your options. As Visa/MC purport, you do have a choice of currencies, but you need to make that choice heard! Don't be complacent in this sneaky tactic by some merchants to pad revenues.
Before going to a different country, get educated. Understand the exchange rate relative to your native currency. Know how to recognize when the merchant is trying to force DCC on the transaction, and pull out all of the stops to make sure it doesn't happen to you.
If you have a chip-and-PIN credit card, it's easier to control the transaction to try to prevent DCC. With chip-and-signature, if you get an uncooperative merchant, deface the merchant's copy of the receipt. Write LOCAL OPTION NOT OFFERED, cross out the DCC currency amount, and sign the receipt.
This will give additional evidence when filing a dispute to get the DCC charges refunded. When filing the dispute, you can use the Visa Exchange Rate Calculator or MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool to determine the Visa or MasterCard exchange rate on the date the transaction posted to your credit card. Compare this to the DCC value to figure out the amount by which the merchant overcharged you. Don't forget to add in any Foreign Transaction Fee if your card has one. (If it does, you should really consider finding a card for use overseas without a FTF.
)Example Images (click for a larger image)
Hotel receipts in China, the Netherlands, and Dubai respectively:
Purchase receipts in China and Korea:
Cancelled translation in Hong Kong:
Novotel in Shenzen:
Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) [2014-2016]
Apr 19, 2014, 7:16 am
#286
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Miami, Nice
Programs: Marriott Titanium, AA Concierge Key, Delta, United, Emorates, and others
Posts: 4,694
Since FTF is declining rapidly in several major markets, the even more deceptive DCC has been replacing it and more. It is no accident that American Express has been slower to relinquish FTF's because they have not had DCC. I'll be prepared to make a small wager that they'll join this bandwagon soon. We all should remember that very, very few tourists will object because they're usually seriously ripped off on FX anyway, so DCC, if they even perceive it, may not be worse than what they otherwise will get.
Even some seasoned travellers have no idea what FX is, so this elegant solution will not do anything but grow unless somebody such as the EU gets in the act, and even if that happens it will not do so soon. Just in case anybody looks at my earlier posts, I am arguing the opposite side I took earlier. I insist to the right to have schizophrenia on this subject.
Apr 19, 2014, 7:42 am
#287
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ORDwest
Posts: 333
Sure, no problem. Everybody needs hobby interests. Consistency is overrated anyway!
For a traveler's international payment needs, I suppose we could say that DCC is better than paying Travelex-like fees. And paying 2.7% to AMEX in FTF beats a 4-5% DCC, for now at least.
There are some folks (likely not FTers) who are so price-insensitive that they will still accept DCC or other "convenience" fees, even after understanding that they really have nothing to gain from accepting the fee. So the burden is on us to stay alert to the scammers. <sigh>
For a traveler's international payment needs, I suppose we could say that DCC is better than paying Travelex-like fees. And paying 2.7% to AMEX in FTF beats a 4-5% DCC, for now at least.
There are some folks (likely not FTers) who are so price-insensitive that they will still accept DCC or other "convenience" fees, even after understanding that they really have nothing to gain from accepting the fee. So the burden is on us to stay alert to the scammers. <sigh>
Apr 19, 2014, 7:50 am
#288
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ORDwest
Posts: 333
Having been stung multiple times by DCC as well as Chase Bank's $5 overseas ATM fees & 3% foreign transaction fees, I did a little research trying to find a US bank with no ATM fees or currency conversion fees. So far the only one I could find is Schwab Bank, so I'm going to give them a try. They advertise zero fees & ATM fee rebates when charged by the ATM owner. This way I can just use cash in DCC heavy countries, such as Spain, while avoiding all bank fees.
Apr 19, 2014, 9:16 am
#289
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
Even some seasoned travellers have no idea what FX is, so this elegant solution will not do anything but grow unless somebody such as the EU gets in the act, and even if that happens it will not do so soon. Just in case anybody looks at my earlier posts, I am arguing the opposite side I took earlier. I insist to the right to have schizophrenia on this subject.
There's hope tho - Taiwan went really bad in 2011 (Global Payments was always to blame), but something happened and they went to full compliance again from 2013 onwards - nowadays DCC is offered but fully optional in Taiwan. I wondered what happened to them in between 2011 and 2013, and won't mind more of that happening elsewhere.
Apr 19, 2014, 9:56 am
#290
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,063
It's another financial system pest, just like HFT.
There's hope tho - Taiwan went really bad in 2011 (Global Payments was always to blame), but something happened and they went to full compliance again from 2013 onwards - nowadays DCC is offered but fully optional in Taiwan. I wondered what happened to them in between 2011 and 2013, and won't mind more of that happening elsewhere.
There's hope tho - Taiwan went really bad in 2011 (Global Payments was always to blame), but something happened and they went to full compliance again from 2013 onwards - nowadays DCC is offered but fully optional in Taiwan. I wondered what happened to them in between 2011 and 2013, and won't mind more of that happening elsewhere.
Apr 19, 2014, 6:15 pm
#291
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
This may not be stated quite clearly, so a clarification might be in order:
1. The merchants bank (acquirer) is paid their normal fees but the merchant, called "discount rate". Those fees are in the local currency of record for the merchant, normally the currency of the country in which the merchant is located. There are even arcane exceptions to that.
2. The issuers bank is always paid in the currency of record for the card that was issued, without exception.
3. All DCC does is replace the normal process for FX with one artificially established by the merchant in cooperation with their acquirer. Nothing else. The published rates for the associations do not apply in that case, but all other association and issuer fees do apply including foreign transaction fees, if any.
4. For US transactions, the largest acquirers are aggressively marketing DCC to encourage US merchant to ride the "gravy train". The prototypical US promotion to merchants might be this one, from FDR which is the largest US acquirer by far, partly with JV's with major US issuers:
https://www.firstdata.com/downloads/...version_ss.pdf
1. The merchants bank (acquirer) is paid their normal fees but the merchant, called "discount rate". Those fees are in the local currency of record for the merchant, normally the currency of the country in which the merchant is located. There are even arcane exceptions to that.
2. The issuers bank is always paid in the currency of record for the card that was issued, without exception.
3. All DCC does is replace the normal process for FX with one artificially established by the merchant in cooperation with their acquirer. Nothing else. The published rates for the associations do not apply in that case, but all other association and issuer fees do apply including foreign transaction fees, if any.
4. For US transactions, the largest acquirers are aggressively marketing DCC to encourage US merchant to ride the "gravy train". The prototypical US promotion to merchants might be this one, from FDR which is the largest US acquirer by far, partly with JV's with major US issuers:
https://www.firstdata.com/downloads/...version_ss.pdf
Apr 20, 2014, 5:07 am
#292
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
You might also check credit unions and even smaller local banks in your area. My local bank's ATM/debit card is fee-free at all domestic MoneyPass network ATMs, and now has no fees for using foreign ATMs (used to be a limit of 3 free draws per month, then $2.00 per transaction). Also, I have yet to be charged any fees by the foreign ATM networks. I use only bank ATMs and stay away from anything that looks like a third-party machine. Every time I have checked, the exchange rates seem about as good as a consumer can do.
Apr 20, 2014, 7:26 am
#293
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Miami, Nice
Programs: Marriott Titanium, AA Concierge Key, Delta, United, Emorates, and others
Posts: 4,694
Even huge wholesale transactions are volume-sensitive, although the margins there are referred to in "pips". It is possible for consumers to get very fine foreign exchange rates, although one needs to know a fair amount to manage the process, and must have origin and destination accounts for the currencies to be used. The one I personally use is Oanda, but there are others. Oanda does explain the FX pricing pretty well IMHO.
http://fxtrade.oanda.com/learn/intro...nventions/pips
Apr 20, 2014, 9:57 pm
#294
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Irvine CA & PEK
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Marriott Titanium, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Qantas Platinum, United S
Posts: 664
I am not an expert on banking transactions, but based on the international credit card transaction model that I understand:
Merchant -> acquirer bank -> network (Visa, MC) -> issuer bank -> card holder
The merchant wants to be credited the correct amount in local currency for the service, minus the swipe fee charged by the acquirer bank;
Acquirer wants to be credited the correct amount in local currency for the transaction;
In case a no FTF card, the issuer bank is charged the appropriate amount in card currency + 1%, which it absorbs for the card holder;
Card holder is debited the appropriate amount in card currency, and the rate is shown on the statement.
In this loop, the network does all the currency conversion and charges 1% for the service. Each side sees the transaction as a normal local currency transaction.
Therefore, anyone using DCC is just purely trying to rip people off, and a lot of these DCC people deceive.
Of course, that is based on the assumption that my model is accurate, which I don't have the confidence. But if I build a credit card network, it would be looking like this.
Merchant -> acquirer bank -> network (Visa, MC) -> issuer bank -> card holder
The merchant wants to be credited the correct amount in local currency for the service, minus the swipe fee charged by the acquirer bank;
Acquirer wants to be credited the correct amount in local currency for the transaction;
In case a no FTF card, the issuer bank is charged the appropriate amount in card currency + 1%, which it absorbs for the card holder;
Card holder is debited the appropriate amount in card currency, and the rate is shown on the statement.
In this loop, the network does all the currency conversion and charges 1% for the service. Each side sees the transaction as a normal local currency transaction.
Therefore, anyone using DCC is just purely trying to rip people off, and a lot of these DCC people deceive.
Of course, that is based on the assumption that my model is accurate, which I don't have the confidence. But if I build a credit card network, it would be looking like this.
Apr 20, 2014, 10:16 pm
#295
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
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Ideally, merchant wants to be credited the amount of the purchase with no fee payable by him.
Acquirer wants to maximise profit.
It might not be able to do so by increasing fees to merchant - look what's happening to Amex.
Might be easier to scam the cardholder, to which it has no ongoing relationship. Acquirers to cardholders are as transactional as hookers.
No-FTF - yes, it's concessionary pricing.
The only possible benefit DCC may bring is a choice of currency conversion is better than no choice in currency conversion.
Unfortunately I have yet to see a DCC supplier that offers a price improvement over V/MC - now DCC only exists to trap customers.
I don't think switching off DCC is practical without substantial cost to V/MC but policing them til they get run out of business may be.
It might not be able to do so by increasing fees to merchant - look what's happening to Amex.
Might be easier to scam the cardholder, to which it has no ongoing relationship. Acquirers to cardholders are as transactional as hookers.
In this loop, the network does all the currency conversion and charges 1% for the service. Each side sees the transaction as a normal local currency transaction.
Therefore, anyone using DCC is just purely trying to rip people off, and a lot of these DCC people deceive.
Of course, that is based on the assumption that my model is accurate, which I don't have the confidence. But if I build a credit card network, it would be looking like this.
Therefore, anyone using DCC is just purely trying to rip people off, and a lot of these DCC people deceive.
Of course, that is based on the assumption that my model is accurate, which I don't have the confidence. But if I build a credit card network, it would be looking like this.
Unfortunately I have yet to see a DCC supplier that offers a price improvement over V/MC - now DCC only exists to trap customers.
I don't think switching off DCC is practical without substantial cost to V/MC but policing them til they get run out of business may be.
Apr 20, 2014, 11:20 pm
#296
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
All credit cards that I know of in the US now charge the same fee for all foreign transactions, regardless of currency, which defeats the purpose of DCC. I am not sure about issuers in other countries but I imagine it's similar.
Apr 20, 2014, 11:33 pm
#297
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,041
No. If you use an FTF card and DCC, you get hit twice because the transaction is still "foreign".
Apr 20, 2014, 11:55 pm
#298
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,803
The benefit was originally designed for cards that charge a foreign currency fee but no foreign transaction fee. In this case, DCC would save you the 3% charge from your issuer and therefore might be useful.
All credit cards that I know of in the US now charge the same fee for all foreign transactions, regardless of currency, which defeats the purpose of DCC. I am not sure about issuers in other countries but I imagine it's similar.
All credit cards that I know of in the US now charge the same fee for all foreign transactions, regardless of currency, which defeats the purpose of DCC. I am not sure about issuers in other countries but I imagine it's similar.
Apr 21, 2014, 12:06 am
#299
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
Several years ago, credit card companies charged foreign currency fees only if you used your card in a foreign currency. DCC enabled you to avoid this. Upset at the lost revenue, the credit card companies changed foreign currency fees to foreign transaction fees.
Apr 21, 2014, 12:23 am
#300
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,041
Did you not read the previous sentence before the one you bolded?
Several years ago, credit card companies charged foreign currency fees only if you used your card in a foreign currency. DCC enabled you to avoid this. Upset at the lost revenue, the credit card companies changed foreign currency fees to foreign transaction fees.
Several years ago, credit card companies charged foreign currency fees only if you used your card in a foreign currency. DCC enabled you to avoid this. Upset at the lost revenue, the credit card companies changed foreign currency fees to foreign transaction fees.