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FlyerTalk Forums Thread Wiki: USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
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Wiki Link
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi

What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:

Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1

SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface

Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.

Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.

Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.

If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.

Thanks for helping out!


As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.

Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.

Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.

Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.

Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.

As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.

I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)

I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.


In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.

I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
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Old Jul 1, 14, 7:26 pm   #5311
  
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Originally Posted by HkCaGu View Post
Where exactly? In May I bought two cards (938 DKK) at the tourist info counter (merchant name: Koebenhavns Lufthavne Kastrup) using my BofA TR. A receipt printed and I signed.

I had two local train station experiences (Copenhagen, Malmo) where PIN-less Cap One was rejected while ATM-PIN BofA TR worked. Also at McDonald's (SE, DE) self order kiosks required the same but human counters did not require a PIN.
It was a kiosk at the airport near the train/metro stations in terminal 3.
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Old Jul 1, 14, 7:31 pm   #5312
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Originally Posted by geohiller View Post

Citi Aadvantage Executive Mastercard Chip and Signature Usage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all,

Just back from Italy and France. As expected, always came as Chip and Signature, and couldn't be used in the toll booths in France (was usable in Italian Autostrada though).

Interesting experience in the Milan metro - put card in, was asked for PIN, gave the Cash Advance pin and it worked (but transactions less than 10 Euro)

George
Must be more a matter of some kiosks accepting foreign cards and others not, rather than the EMV configuration?
Why do you say that? It's well established in this thread that France uses chip + "offline" PIN (and that that's the only kind of EMV that works in most French unmanned kiosks), while most US EMV cards can only do "online" PIN (that's what it's doing if you simply use your cash advance PIN).

Italy doesn't have the "offline" PIN requirement that France does. So that's why the chip + signature (prioirity) card worked at Milan metro with cash advance PIN, because the card tried chip + "online" PIN and that worked.

So while there can be issues of some kiosks not accepting foreign cards (especially in Denmark, for example), I don't see anything that geohiller described about France and Italy that fits that scenario.

Last edited by sdsearch; Jul 1, 14 at 7:37 pm
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Old Jul 2, 14, 3:54 am   #5313
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Why do you say that? It's well established in this thread that France uses chip + "offline" PIN (and that that's the only kind of EMV that works in most French unmanned kiosks), while most US EMV cards can only do "online" PIN (that's what it's doing if you simply use your cash advance PIN).

Italy doesn't have the "offline" PIN requirement that France does. So that's why the chip + signature (prioirity) card worked at Milan metro with cash advance PIN, because the card tried chip + "online" PIN and that worked.

So while there can be issues of some kiosks not accepting foreign cards (especially in Denmark, for example), I don't see anything that geohiller described about France and Italy that fits that scenario.
1. Many places in France only accept French-issued cards
2. Italy is primarily Chip&Signature or Swipe&Sign. Many places ONLY do swipe still - either don't have EMV capabilities, or swipe chip cards anyways
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Old Jul 2, 14, 4:21 am   #5314
  
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The toll roads in France usually read the magnetic stripe anyway. It's just they only usually accept British and French cards (and American Express on the tolls that accept it).
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Old Jul 2, 14, 5:24 am   #5315
  
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My AT&T Universal Card has had an EMV chip since 2013. I am also a Charter Member. My card earns Thank You points with the added "benefit" of 5 points per dollar spent on AT&T products and services. You should be able to log on to online account management and request a replacement card. Your name will appear next to a radio button indicating that this is the card to be replaced. The following verbiage is listed:

"Citi Card with Chip
Your new Citi Card will feature built-in chip technology to provide enhanced security when used at chip-enabled terminals. Learn more about Citi Card with Chip."

For whatever reason, the Citi website shows the card without an EMV chip; however, current cardmembers will receive chipped cards at reissue or very likely before October 2015. I agree it is a pretty lame credit card and I also keep mine for age only.
Well, I suppose that means they intend to keep this anachronism alive for a few more years. I went through the online card replacement procedure you describe, but there was no mention of a chip. I was specifically looking for an EMV option and saw nothing, so I tried to back out of the request, but wound up receiving a new (non-chip) card anyway. A follow-up message to Citi confirmed that EMV was not available for that card. I think this must have been mid-late 2012, so perhaps things have changed. Still a card whose only noteworthy feature is no AF, unless you like the AT&T death-star logo.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 12:40 pm   #5316
  
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EMV is being viewed as positive by Americans:

Quote:
Respondents were asked a number of questions pertaining to security, confidence in financial institutions and credit cards, purchasing habits, geographic location, gender and general understanding of current magnetic strip and EMV technology. When asked specifically about the underlying technologies of a credit or debit card, Americans responded favorably, with 69 percent stating that EMV chip cards are making their debit and credit card transactions more secure, with only five percent feeling chip cards make their transactions less secure. When asked about the tap and pay feature available on some EMV chip cards, the most common concern expressed was an increased risk of theft (61 percent), followed by 37 percent expressing concerns about being charged incorrectly for purchases.
Also, reading the full survey, it appears that 38% prefer PIN, 26% prefer signature and the rest don't care. Blows the whole "Americans don't want PIN" thing out of the water.

Last edited by tmiw; Jul 2, 14 at 12:52 pm
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Old Jul 2, 14, 1:17 pm   #5317
  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post

Also, reading the full survey, it appears that 38% prefer PIN, 26% prefer signature and the rest don't care. Blows the whole "Americans don't want PIN" thing out of the water.
These are encouraging numbers. I think people assume a PIN is more secure than signature because only the cardholder would presumably know the PIN number. I think if you can detach the notion of PIN = cash advance with a credit card, then more people would be receptive.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 6:52 pm   #5318
  
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Well, I suppose that means they intend to keep this anachronism alive for a few more years. I went through the online card replacement procedure you describe, but there was no mention of a chip. I was specifically looking for an EMV option and saw nothing, so I tried to back out of the request, but wound up receiving a new (non-chip) card anyway. A follow-up message to Citi confirmed that EMV was not available for that card. I think this must have been mid-late 2012, so perhaps things have changed. Still a card whose only noteworthy feature is no AF, unless you like the AT&T death-star logo.
Yeah; I am surprised the card is still around. I have a feeling that when the current contract with AT&T expires, both Citi and AT&T will likely decide to end the program and those of us with the Universal Card will be issued Citi-branded Thank You cards....just my guess though.

At any rate, I really wish some US banks/financial institutions (besides UNFCU) would offer a true Chip + PIN card with PIN as the default process...Chase has been silent about their Chip + PIN plans since the minor announcement in February. I would like to confirm that it is truly Chip + PIN and not Chip + Choice with Signature as the default....
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Old Jul 2, 14, 7:26 pm   #5319
  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90 View Post
1. Many places in France only accept French-issued cards
If there are countries doing that, then there will always be situations where foreigners are out of luck.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 7:27 pm   #5320
  
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Yeah; I am surprised the card is still around. I have a feeling that when the current contract with AT&T expires, both Citi and AT&T will likely decide to end the program and those of us with the Universal Card will be issued Citi-branded Thank You cards....just my guess though.

At any rate, I really wish some US banks/financial institutions (besides UNFCU) would offer a true Chip + PIN card with PIN as the default process...Chase has been silent about their Chip + PIN plans since the minor announcement in February. I would like to confirm that it is truly Chip + PIN and not Chip + Choice with Signature as the default....
Don't hold your breath; it isn't going to happen.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 7:29 pm   #5321
  
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Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
EMV is being viewed as positive by Americans:



Also, reading the full survey, it appears that 38% prefer PIN, 26% prefer signature and the rest don't care. Blows the whole "Americans don't want PIN" thing out of the water.
This is exactly what I suspected, although I would have guessed slightly lower numbers than the 38% or 26% and more in the "don't care" category.

I predict that whatever type of cards they get, people will adapt and carry on with their lives.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 7:46 pm   #5322
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At any rate, I really wish some US banks/financial institutions (besides UNFCU) would offer a true Chip + PIN card with PIN as the default process...Chase has been silent about their Chip + PIN plans since the minor announcement in February. I would like to confirm that it is truly Chip + PIN and not Chip + Choice with Signature as the default....
There is no one such thing as "true" chip + PIN. There are endless variations. There is "offline" PIN vs "online" PIN, and there is priorirty order (which can be pretty complicated, if you read upthread, with half a dozen or even more different priority levels). What is the default in one scenario may not be the default in another scenario, so it's not even as simple as "what is the default?"!
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Old Jul 2, 14, 10:23 pm   #5323
  
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Originally Posted by joshwex90 View Post
1. Many places in France only accept French-issued cards
2. Italy is primarily Chip&Signature or Swipe&Sign. Many places ONLY do swipe still - either don't have EMV capabilities, or swipe chip cards anyways
Regarding France, that was why I asked where JEFFJAGUAR's fellow sufferers in line at CDG were from. I have no hands-on idea, but I wondered if the problem was that the card wasn't French or at least EU.

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Originally Posted by chipless View Post
If there are countries doing that, then there will always be situations where foreigners are out of luck.
According to this April 2014 TripAdvisor thread, local transportation systems like city subways don't accept credit cards at all. The Deutsche Bahn national rail system does.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...alatinate.html
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Old Jul 2, 14, 10:24 pm   #5324
  
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Someone mentioned in (another?) thread that the Bluebird is FTF-free. Is that still true? I'm wondering if I should get one for ATM use overseas, even if it's not EMV enabled yet.
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Old Jul 2, 14, 11:22 pm   #5325
  
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Originally Posted by sdsearch View Post
There is no one such thing as "true" chip + PIN. There are endless variations. There is "offline" PIN vs "online" PIN, and there is priorirty order (which can be pretty complicated, if you read upthread, with half a dozen or even more different priority levels). What is the default in one scenario may not be the default in another scenario, so it's not even as simple as "what is the default?"!
As far as I'm concerned, if we want to talk about "true" Chip+PIN there are only four variations:

1. Offline Chip+PIN where C+P is priority 1 on CVM list
2. Offline Chip+PIN where some other CVM takes 1st place
3. Online Chip+PIN where C+P is priority 1 on CVM list
4. Online Chip+PIN where some other CVM takes 1st place

It seems that the very few mainstream issuers in the US that issue C+P cards are issuing Ver.2 whereas what most people seem to want is Ver.1, even though there are other countries that are doing Ver.3. Thus far it seems only Citi AA MasterCards and a couple others are Ver.4.

In any case, what most people don't want to deal with is when the card has signature as 1st priority CVM, the merchant doesn't like signature or the terminal doesn't want to look down the CVM list to see that there is in fact PIN available, and the transaction is denied or voided after the fact. Inconvenient all around, and it could all be avoided if offline C+P went first in the CVM list. Or one with online C+P priority for countries that do that. It really doesn't need to be as complicated as you make it sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmiw View Post
Someone mentioned in (another?) thread that the Bluebird is FTF-free. Is that still true? I'm wondering if I should get one for ATM use overseas, even if it's not EMV enabled yet.
Yep, it is. I've used mine overseas for quite a while now. When VR was still a thing I would use this as a method to earn miles on overseas spend on cards that would otherwise incur a FTF. CC->VR->Bluebird, the VR purchase fee generally being more than worth the AA or US miles.
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