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Best place to spend winter during a potential second wave of COVID?

Best place to spend winter during a potential second wave of COVID?

Old Oct 24, 20, 9:46 am
  #541  
 
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Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
In addition, tourists aren’t visiting cities globally. That means no tourists and commuters, which is having a disastrous impact on the businesses that depend on them. The only way governments could have addressed this is to get control of the virus on a nationwide or global basis, which means test/trace/treatment/masking.
In Europe, tourism picked up in those locations that had relatively few restriction (both on entry and on day-to-day life). Of course it was still well below 100% (after all, non-EU visitors are not allowed to enter at all), but there was some demand.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 10:12 am
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Originally Posted by fransknorge View Post
Also again for the argument that the lockdown kills economy, not the virus, here is yet another real life example showing this is wrong. If the virus is controlled then the economy rebound.



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/b...down-iowa.html
Ultimately, scientists and governments urgently needed to develop mitigation strategies that didn’t rely a lockdown, extreme social distancing or vaccines. The answer always was mass testing and tracing, meaning that basically all individuals get tested as much as possible (weekly would be a good start) - this is what American pro sports have done with pretty significant success, and this is what New
York has done pretty well since the initial outbreaks. However few others have done this
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Old Oct 24, 20, 11:08 am
  #543  
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Agreed with you. But for this to work you need to contain transmission to a very low level, which means getting to a low level. And for this to happen in Europe you need to lockdown now for a month.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 11:36 am
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“You can’t just open the economy and expect everything to go back to pre-Covid levels,” said Michael Luca, a Harvard Business School economist who has studied the impact of restrictions during the pandemic. “If a market is not safe, people won’t participate in it.”
i suspect Florida is about to learn this the hard way when it comes to very, very disappointing snowbird numbers.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 11:41 am
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You can cross Uruguay off your winter travel itineraries.

One of South America’s top summer destinations will remain closed to foreign tourists this summer.

Uruguay, home to luxury beach resort Punta del Este, will keep international borders closed this summer, President Luis Lacalle Pou said late Thursday. The country, which boasts the lowest Covid infection and mortality rates in South America, will opt to protect its public health gains over the economy as Covid-19 rages in neighboring Argentina and Brazil. Uruguay has recorded just 2,701 virus cases and 53 deaths.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...losed-on-covid
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Old Oct 24, 20, 11:42 am
  #546  
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Originally Posted by fransknorge View Post
If the virus is controlled then the economy rebound.
Of course the economy will rebound and you can enjoy meat on the table. But it will be too late for some billion+ people who will have lost everything.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 1:21 pm
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Originally Posted by stimpy View Post
Of course the economy will rebound and you can enjoy meat on the table. But it will be too late for some billion+ people who will have lost everything.
You're not getting this, are you?

The billion people losing everything and the 100 million starving to death on the streets don't matter, as long as the lower middle classes in the west can get their 80% salary and virtue signal to their "friends" on Facebook.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 2:10 pm
  #548  
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The answer has been staring the entire world in the face for a long long time. The west refuses to see it.

In the East, where Covid was a problem long before it was in the radar of the West, life continues as normal. And it has nothing to do with authoritarian v. “free”, as Singapore/post-Wuhan China/Thailand and Taiwan/Korea/Japan are all living life as normal.

So what is the common denominator? All those countries have societal value about giving a **** about someone other than themselves. There was no need for a mask mandate because everyone wore a ******* mask. Testing and tracing and responsible social distancing is the norm, lockdowns and debates over wearing a Goddamn cloth over your face is not.

It’s frankly sad, how horrible the West outside some very select countries, faced this pandemic compared to the East.

as to where the best place to spend the winter is, stay home with your family.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 5:21 pm
  #549  
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It’s not an answer because although you maybe right, it’s no solution. There is no way the population of the western countries will suddenly start following rules like the countries you mention. Whether you like it or not, it’s not realistic. Climate activists, poverty, animal cruelty etc can all make the same useless argument.

A more practical question would be.. given the attitudes of western people (in general, not all, but some) what is the best way... what’s the answer to that, without pointless bitterness which achieves nothing, apart from taking a swipe

Last edited by PxC; Oct 24, 20 at 5:27 pm
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Old Oct 24, 20, 6:26 pm
  #550  
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Originally Posted by PxC View Post
It’s not an answer because although you maybe right, it’s no solution. There is no way the population of the western countries will suddenly start following rules like the countries you mention. Whether you like it or not, it’s not realistic. Climate activists, poverty, animal cruelty etc can all make the same useless argument.

A more practical question would be.. given the attitudes of western people (in general, not all, but some) what is the best way... what’s the answer to that, without pointless bitterness which achieves nothing, apart from taking a swipe
You’re right it’s just a bitter swipe. None of the discussion in this thread achieves anything except allow us to get our opinion out there so there’s that.

I am bitter, because a certain segment of the west (and it rhymes with tight tee pull) would rather take their freedoms to the grave than to give a **** about anyone but themselves. A derelict of humanity.

Cases are at all time high, stay home this winter.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 6:46 pm
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Originally Posted by TravelingZoomer View Post
I am bitter, because a certain segment of the west (and it rhymes with tight tee pull) would rather take their freedoms to the grave than to give a **** about anyone but themselves. A derelict of humanity.
It's a matter of priorities and life goals, not freedoms. Humans always took risks. Driving is dangerous, for example, yet we didn't ban it, because we collectively agree that the damage is worth the benefits. This has nothing to do with "not caring about others". I could say the same about people who don't care what damage they do on people's lifes, just to stop the spread of one disease (and believe me, I have many reasons to hold a grudge against them). But it's not that simple - belonging to one group or another is not a matter of caring about others or not. Indeed, many people who prefer lighter approach are ones belonging to high risk groups (and vice versa). It's a matter of finding a right place to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable risks, in relation to benefits of taking those risks.

​​​​​Yes, European culture is different than culture of some places you mentioned. That's why we consistently score the best results when it comes to population's happiness (especially our liberal and progressive regions, such as Nordic countries), unlike places where everyone's just a part of a big machine with no individual value.
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Last edited by the810; Oct 24, 20 at 6:52 pm
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Old Oct 24, 20, 6:53 pm
  #552  
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Originally Posted by The_Bouncer View Post
You're not getting this, are you?

The billion people losing everything and the 100 million starving to death on the streets don't matter, as long as the lower middle classes in the west can get their 80% salary and virtue signal to their "friends" on Facebook.
The way to save those poor people "losing everything" and "starving to death on the streets" -- whether "in the west" or otherwise -- may well be best done by controlling the spread of this virus. A confident public that is secure is more likely to spend and stimulate demand and all the good (and bad) that comes with it.

When the daily death counts for this virus in Sweden was much higher than it is now, demand in Sweden plummeted -- and in ways plummeted to levels even below that in locked down Norway and Denmark. And this happened in Sweden even as there was little to no government mandate to shutdown at that time. Right now in Sweden, demand has recovered to a substantial degree in parts, but that is because of pandemic fatigue and because the daily death counts for this virus had dropped a lot and stayed pretty low for some months. If the pandemic gets worse and the daily death counts skyrocket, the demand will probably plummet again and even more retail venues in the country will shutdown or (again) further restrict their hours due to limited demand. Even now, the restaurant businesses around the city center office buildings in the big Swedish cities are getting only about 50% of the lunch traffic that they were getting at this time last year. That drop in business is due to the pandemic, not so much due to lock-downs.

If the death counts in Sweden return this winter to levels as bad or worse than was the case in the Q2 in Sweden, Sweden will be a less socially active place then than it is today and that will be largely due to members of the public not wanting to win themselves or their near and dear ones a Darwin Award.
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Old Oct 24, 20, 6:53 pm
  #553  
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We’re all programmed one way or another, Westerners very different to Asians. There’s no point being upset about it, it’s just the way the world works. Life isn’t fair, and there’s probably worse injustices to concern yourself about than Covid, and a lot of things you can celebrate rather than be pissed off about.

Soon enough there will be a vaccine, and Covid will fade, disproportionately depending on health and wealth. And that’s the best case scenario....
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Old Oct 24, 20, 7:09 pm
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Originally Posted by the810 View Post
​​​​​Yes, European culture is different than culture of some places you mentioned. That's why we consistently score the best results when it comes to population's happiness (especially our liberal and progressive regions, such as Nordic countries), unlike places where everyone's just a part of a big machine with no individual value.
A small population, rich handful of European countries tops the list. The rest of Europe is pedestrian.

(if you actually believe these surveys)

Last edited by bensyd; Oct 24, 20 at 10:35 pm
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Old Oct 24, 20, 11:07 pm
  #555  
 
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As I wrote before. You want to control/eliminate the virus, then do as APAC countries did:
  • Give everyone QR code that determines their health status and where they can go/enter - China. The public has no option to contest what government/health authorities do. Lockdown your borders, force everyone arriving from outside to stay in government-run quarantine.
  • Lockdown your borders, force everyone arriving from outside to stay in quarantine facility and charge them - NZ, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunai, Thailand, China, Singapore.
  • Lockdown your borders, introduce internal borders inside the country, don't even give permissions to your own citizens to come back to the country without prior approval and prohibit them from leaving - AU.
  • Lockdown your borders, force everyone arriving from outside to stay in government-run quarantine facility with movement controlling bracelet, force everyone in the country to wear Bluetooth token when they leave the house and handle $8000-$9000 fines for breaking health regulations based on Facebook posts - Singapore.
  • Lockdown your borders, use extensive movement tracking based on GPS data/credit card transactions and share such data to other people, force everyone arriving from outside to stay in government-run quarantine facility with movement controlling app and checks hourly - Korea, Taiwan

Well, pick up any of above.
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Last edited by invisible; Oct 25, 20 at 1:41 am
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