If compensation is so low--Why do you need a union to protect your wages?

If compensation is so low--Why don't you switch jobs where you are paid what you think you are worth?

I agree with Vulcan. An employee taking a BF seat and sticking the loyal customer in coach is no different than the bus boy stealing the best cut of prime rib--leaving the dry end-cut for the paying customer.

ENOUGH!!!

There are two issues here. We need to stop mixing them together.

Issue #1: Employees sitting in BF over Elites.

This one is clearly in the favor of the employees b/c of the reasons I, Avek, Jared, Benson and others have outlined OVER and OVER again in this and other threads (in more detail in other threads BTW). IT IS SIMPLY A BY-PRODUCT OF A POLICY CO BELIEVES INCREASES ITS REVENUE. This policy has two primary cash flows for CO. CO brings in extra revenue from the customers who pay for BF that would otherwise pay a lower fare and wait for an upgrade if the policy was like AMR. The negative cash flow would be the lost of SYSTEM WIDE $$$ of those who choose another airline for their Intl or ALL of their flying. How do the cash flows shake out? I dont know.

Airlines disagree about this policy and the stance that each takes dictates the quality of the Biz product. The only reason the empoloyees make out well is b/c the company makes out well. That is a sound policy if indeed the cash flows of the policy work in CO's favor.

ISSUE #2: Hokey/72 Hour Rule and its Implemantation

This could definitely be improved. Putting everything else aside, I think we would all like more definitive rules so we can make our travel choices with a higher degree of confidence.

Weatherboy said "....best left empty to preserve the value of the seat". Well said. I can tell you I've talked to several mid/high level people in IAH and they all espouse this philosophy, that is to say that they want to keep the seat and atmosphere/service something special that people will pay big bucks for. I understand this philosophy and it makes sense. Someone paying $8,000 for a RT to HKG should feel special. The trouble is, like FTers, these people are pretty sharp and not stupid. They are very astute at putting 2 and 2 together when they see smiling non-revs and their families move up to empty BF seats when the door closes and if it were me, I would not like it. I can guarantee I can spot 90% of these non-revs using just the techiques described in this thread. You are not "preserving the value of the seat" when you allow this practice!

You can also say Revenue Control is to blame and of course they bear most of the blame for the situation. However, somebody at a pretty high level made the decision to allow non-revs to 'upgrade' at the last minute, probably as suggested a perk for hard working employees. This same person obviously did not calculate, or ignored, the effect this would have on HoKeY lottery players or those who paid big bucks for thier seats.

I am not saying that hard working, generally low paid, employees don't deserve perks. The trouble is, this one really, really presents just the wrong immage. At a time of layoffs and turmoil, image is everything, and, IMO, employees should not have this a a perk. Its just the wrong one at the wrong time, once again IMO.

Finally, I need to say that I have enjoyed this thread. It has stayed 'civil', and not gotten into flame wars as some threads that are emotional topics like this one have gotten. This is what Flyertalk should be all about!

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-26-2002).]

I have no way to say what you saw or didn't but in my year of traveling with CO to Platinum last year on mostly Europe/Asia routes, I have never seen this happen ever...not even once.

In the trip that I traveled BF to Asia, I didn't even see a BF concierge once.

I just find it very curious that you happen to see these things as if they happen all the time and yet I didn't witness a single one of these "folks".

While some NRSAs might try to cheat the system, it's really not that difficult for the airline to identify and punish such abuse. Besides, 99.9999% of employees are smart enough to realize that it's in THEIR best interest (e.g., job security) to have BF packed with revenue J pax as much as possible.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

Wow...never knew some people have such bitterness over this issue. Believe me, like its been said before, I'm just happy to have any seat on the plane.

Its very sad that some people think that CO's hard working employees don't deserve the perk of BF/F seats every now & then. This problem could easily be solved - buy a first class seat & stop just waiting for the upgrade.Then you don't have to worry about playing HoKey.

Lemme just say - simple Onepass upgrades are the worst & you Platinums are my favorites

answer to question number 1 - because without a union we would still be back in the stone ages. Flight Attendants would be sharing rooms on layovers, there would be no expense pay, very limited health care, no limits on hours the company can work you, etc. - need I go on.

answer to question number 2 - because of the "allure of free/reduced rate travel" for one. For two, there is a future in these jobs, thanks to the help of unions. While beginning pay is miserable and you suffer poverty level wages for some years, you will eventually be able to make a comfortable living in most airline positions. Not only that, without people like weather boy willing to take these jobs, you would be suffering customer service the likes you could not even imagine. You think you suffer now - try flying on an airline that treats you the same way the cashiers at Burger King treat you. And you can say what you want but I've yet to be treated that poorly on any airline. There wouldn't be another airline to turn to because they would all be the same. So count your blessings. Air travel is a part of life for most people on these boards and by and large it's not that bad. It could certainly be worse.

For the record, I'm not an airline employee. But while I retain non-rev perks, in the last 2 years, all but 2 flights were revenue. The NRSA system is an inconvienant one, first/business class seats are rare, and in the long run, at least with my package, it's less expensive to buy a ticket than to deal with the non-rev world.

As a frequent revenue flyer, and as a non-rever, I too can spot a non-rever from a mile away. A few years ago when non-rev dress codes were much more strict than they are today, it was extraordinarily easy to spot the non-rever: after all, how many family of fives wear suits/ties and Sunday-best dresses on trips to Hawaii and Florida (including the kids.) While the dress codes in the industry are lax now, it's still easy to spot a non-rev: they're usually the ones sweating up a storm near a gate waiting for their name to be called: while the Platinums are waiting for their upgrades, they're usually within 2 rows away of the gate agent waiting to clear any seat on the flight. One could probably write another guide aka "top 10 ways to spot a non-rever."

I've flown my fairshare of trans-oceanic flights too ...as an award-traveler, as a full-fare paying passenger, and as a non-rever. In each of the three situations, I feel that I've earned that seat... and I hold no grudge or care for the others in the cabin, regardless of how they're there.

I guess this is going to be a civil case of agreeing to disagree. Non-rev's aren't responsible for HoKeY and other revenue control rules. And non-rev's should be entitled to available seats regardless of the flight or cabin ...and the current airline policies give them such seats once revenue passengers are taken care of.

Things get blurry with Onepass awards and international BF seats --again, I hold no bad feelings agaist non-revers or empty seats. But I do think Onepass should fix up their award program so that more frequent flyers, especially Elite members, have just as easy access to those seats as a regular fare-paying passengers. An upgrade lottery just won't do.

I don't think you will find a single person on the CO board that would disagree with this statement. The problem is that the powers that be in IAH appear to live on a different planet. There have been many statements on this board over the last few years of how Gordon's "From Worst to First" could be a round trip. If you took a pool of CO FTers right now, I'd bet 80% would agree that this is what is happening. I admit its sad.
I can only say that as a CO top elite every year for 10+ years, I have seriously considered leaving recently due to, what in my view, are serious degradations in what used to be the best FF program, bar none. The one thing that keeps me a bit longer is the fine people that Continental has working for them. The FAs are without doubt, the best trained, most pleasant, most professional of any that I have met in the industry. Please don't change your attidudes.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-26-2002).]

Sorry Vulcan, but I disagree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT with that statement.

Allowing essentially unlimited BF availability for upgrades and rewards would be suicide for CO. As has been mentioned previously, CO manages to sell BF, often at a price premium. Loosening or eliminating capacity controls would, to paraphrase Gordon Bethune, allow the low-fare inmates to run the upscale asylum.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

[This message has been edited by avek00 (edited 10-26-2002).]

I am amazed at your extensive travel. Assuming you fly from EWR (ie a minimum CO mileage point), this means each month you must fly a minimum of 20K, 7K and 7K or 34K actual air miles. That is over 400K actual miles/year. WOW! I know some UA and DL pilots who fly less miles per year. I certanly do not envy you but you appear to wildly wave the CO flag. Good for you.

I also have seen very few business persons (well, actually none) who would whip out their credit card at the last minute to get on a flight after losing out on a reward B/F seat. I cannot imagine (1) a business person flying a business trip in this off-the-cuff manner, or (2) letting everything go until flight time rather than booking a full fare J seat days earlier to insure passage.

As for a minimum of 3 reward B/F seats per each plane, this seems very odd. I doubt if hardly any seats are available the Wed before Thanksgiving etc etc. It would make absolutely no sense to allocate reward seats at ultra peak periods when seats are always priced high and always sell out quickly. Econ 101 anyone?

MisterNice

avek00:
Sorry. I don't think that I should have access to EVERY BF/F seat at any time and prevent CO from making a profit. What I prefer is the NW system. Use capacity control to have a reasonable number of upgrade seats available. I want to know that if I want to fly to HKG during say, September 2003 and am reasonable flexible, that I can today book a confirmed upgrade seat. I refuse to play HoKeY. Why does CO have a FF program that advertises international upgrade benefits, if they are unavailable, unless you buy what amounts to an overpriced ticket with a lottery stub attached.

I agree. I have never seen this at EWR or IAH, ever. I can relate an interesting story, though. About a year ago, I traded personal e-mails with a CO CTO person. This person related how she had a good customer who would always buy refundable tickets to Asia and upgrade with miles. These refundable tickets were not cheap (~$5,000). In the incident repeated to me, the customer bought the ticket and did not clear the 72 hour HoKeY wait list. The CT0 jumped thru hoops and made multiple calls to IAH to get one seat relased for him, all to no avail (there were plenty of seats available). Did this business man whip out his card and buy a J seat?........Nope. He got a refund on his refundable ticket and took his $5,000 to NW who were happy to upgrade him. True story.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-26-2002).]

Vulcan:

NW basically uses the same upgrade system as CO. IME, upgrading on NW can prove to be just as difficult (or even more so) than upgrading on CO, depending on destination and season.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

This whole debate is so silly. At least we have finally gotten past the whole "employees only deserve to travel in the cargo hold" business.

To me the issue is very clear. You buy a low fare economy seat with a guarantee of being in coach, a higher fare economy ticket with the CHANCE to upgrade, or a BF ticket with a guarantee of being in BF.

By buying the so called HoKeY fare you are taking a risk -- you might upgrade, you might not. If the return on that risk isn't acceptable, then don't buy it.

I don't want to you to sit for hours in coach either, but come on. When you buy a lottery ticket, you buy it with the hopes of gaining millions of dollars. Who here, if he or she didn't win, would attack the winner of the lottery or some random millionaire. And yes, the people who complain about the fare policy have called it a lottery. Like everything else in life, you pay your money and you take your chances.

jh

Huh???? I admit I have experience only in ASIA upgrades. I find upgrade seats available on NW, I call CO, they sell me an $1,100 NW ticket upgraded on the spot with my OP miles. I have done this about a dozen times.
If I want to travel on CO, I call, they tell me I can pay $700 for a coach ticket or $1,100 for a coach ticket with a chance to upgrade. I pay the $1,100 and have a real chance of not being upgraded. How is this the same????? In one case I am in BC (guaranteed), in the other ?????

JaredH:
Thank goodness there is the NW opportunity. Otherwise I would be long gone.
I stand by my statement that you have to read the fine print in the CO program to learn about the HoKeY system. Yes, I can buy coach, HoKeY, of BF. If I can't upgrade (guaranteed, like NW) on a reasonable fare ($1,100) when on vacation, why should I give CO the tens of thousands of dollars a year they get in my business travel of ~ 125,000+ miles a year on their flights. It would appear that CO only wants the relationship to be one way.

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-26-2002).]