I agree 100% with your sentiments mauld.

While I may not like HoKeY from a consumer standpoint, it makes good financial sense for CO to not give away its high-yield premium product without at least receiving a decent coach fare for it. And interestingly enough, the airlines with the most liberal international upgrade policies are also the ones inching their way to Bankruptcy Court...

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

Reply:
mauld. It was harder than I thought, but I believe this is the availability you were looking for. Notice the I seats that are available on the international segments ( Sorry I didn't have time to look further). EUA should take care of the domestic ones.
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WED 12FEB03 NEWARK /PARIS *NW EWR SELF SVC E-TKT CKIN AVAIL/CKIN NW-TERM B/KL-TERM C/CO-TERM C/EWR ALTERNATE HPN JFK LGA/CDG ALTERNATE ORY
1 EWR DTW 12/1415 1615 NW 663 F4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 D9S*C

2 AMS 12/1745#0725
NW 68 I4 D4 W0 744*C

3 CDG 13/0945 1055 @NW8531 J4 C4 Z4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 737*C NW8531 OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES ]AM*NW ; ] WED 12FEB03 NEWARK /PARIS *NW 1 EWR MSP 12/1750 2002 NW1087 F4 Y4 B4 MC HC QC VC 319*C 2 AMS 12/2055#1215 NW 56 I1 D1 W4 D10*C 3 CDG 13/1400 1510 @NW8537 J4 C4 Z4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 737*C NW8537 OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES ]AM*NW ; ] WED 12FEB03 NEWARK /PARIS *NW 1 EWR DTW 12/1230 1424 NW 651 F4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 319*C 2 AMS 12/1745#0725 NW 68 I4 D4 W0 744*C 3 CDG 13/0945 1055 @NW8531 J4 C4 Z4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 737*C NW8531 OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES ]AM*NW ; ] WED 12FEB03 NEWARK /PARIS *NW 1 EWR DTW 12/1415 1615 NW 663 F4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 D9S*C 2 AMS 12/1745#0725 NW 68 I4 D4 W0 744*C 3 CDG 13/1135 1245 @NW8227 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 F70*C NW8227 OPERATED BY KLM CITYHOPPER/KLM ]AM*NW ;
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TUE 18FEB03 PARIS /NEWARK *NW CDG ALTERNATE ORY/EWR ALTERNATE HPN JFK LGA 1 CDG AMS 0645 0800 @NW8526 J4 C4 Z0 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 737*C 2 DTW 1110 1350 NW 67 I1 D1 W0 744*C 3 EWR 1515 1711 NW 656 F4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 D95*C NW8526 OPERATED BY KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES ]AM*NW ; ] TUE 18FEB03 PARIS /NEWARK *NW NONE AVBL - ENTER AD FOR MORE / AW FOR WAITLIST SEE ORY FOR ALTERNATE CDG AIRPORTS SEE HPN JFK LGA FOR ALTERNATE EWR AIRPORTS ] NO PREVIOUS OR ORIGINAL REQUEST


EDITED to add: SOrry its a nightmare to post in a readable format. Just got to the galileo site and input the dates.



[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-27-2002).]

WARNING! DANGER! HOT BUTTON ISSUE!

In order to get me and thousands of other high paying business travelers to fly them, airlines (like CO) give us "currency" for use on their airline at a future time. This currency (Frequent Flyer Miles) is NO DIFFERENT from using cash to pay for seats. I assign it the value that the airline tells me it is worth when they use it to entice me to fly them in the first place (use for free tickets, upgrades, perks, all redemptions listed in table form in marketing literature).

Now CO (unlike EVERY OTHER AIRLINE) says "hold on there now...you can't expect us to just give you the seat, upgrade, whatever if you're not paying for it!!!!! " I AM PAYING - WITH YOUR DA*M CURRENCY!!! THE ONE YOU TOLD ME COULD BE USED FOR THE VALUABLE REWARDS ON YOUR DA*M TABLE!!!!!!

The other airlines treat the use of this currency much more like...well currency, paid for just the same as cash. CO however uses a bait and switch mentality - like trying to spend their currency on their airline is some sort of privelage we should beg for, subject to unreasonable (by other airline standards) demands like double mile "extortion pass" redemptions, Saturday night stay requirements, 30 day rules, 72 hour rules, Bend Forward rules, HoKeY fares, etc. Total bait and switch. They claim that they can't be as flexible as the rest of the industry, because they are smaller, then they claim that they reallllyyyyy want the high revenue passengers that these lying policies drive to other airlines where the bait and switch does not exist. On AA, UA, even Southwest for gosh sakes, if there's a seat, you can use their "currency" for a ticket / upgrade.

To show the effects of this in real time, just look at how many frequent flyers are transferring their CO miles to Amtrack then to UA to get unrestricted international rewards - not to mention how many people have left CO entirely for AA, UA etc.

Don't tell me I'm not "paying" for my seat / upgrade when I'm using miles. I am paying with the currency the liars in Houston have set-up. They're just not keeping their part of the bargain.


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 10-27-2002).]

I agree with NJDavid and Vulcan on the nonsense-nature of an upgrade lottery and OnePass mileage as currency.

The OnePass system should be clear, easy, and logical --the only reason they'd throw in a lottery component is to deceive their most valued travelers.

I also think Elite members should receive better FF benefits/perks than non-Elite members. Typically, an elite member is brand loyal and represents a decent amount of revenue for the airline --they should be treated better than "non-elites".

As far as upgrades paid by miles and not by cash, I think miles should equal cash. As someone said before, airline miles are deferred cash from the airline for some sort of travel. If airlines are hesitant to accept miles as cash, rather than make it difficult to redeem the cash, they should just make it harder to earn the cash (i.e.: no more comp'd status matches, no more quadruple mileage bonus, etc.)

By making it harder for those with mileage and status to redeem their miles, they're alienating the purpose the FF system exists: to keep high revenue, frequent travelers loyal with their company.

Be kind to our young friend avek00, he's just an undergraduate student, he's learning the "facts" but still lacks the experience.

Actually, most airlines (CO included), will tell you that they retain ownership of this "currency" and that they allow you to use it at their discretion. They reserve the right to modify or suspend their programs (in CO's case after six month notice). The points and the program belong to CO and it can be as capricious as it like in doling out rewards.

Perhaps CO could do a better job of telling the public what their chances are of obtaining benefits under the restrictions of the program. However, the question still remains why you, or anyone else, who is familiar with the way that CO administers this program and disagrees with it, would continue to participate in it.

It took years of therapy, but I finally learned that I couldn't walk through walls or closed doors. If you want I can give you a few phone numbers. :-)

jh

Sadly, CO elite members ARE treated better than non elites for one pass redemptions. With folks like Vulcan and I as Platinum elites with these complaints, just think how lousy the None-Pass program is for the non elite.

Again to be fair, please remember we both travel out of a CO hub (EWR) - translating to the worst availability and service. Non hub, non transcon and non international travelers do somewhat better, but still relatively poor compared to other airlines.

But CO wants to eat their cake and have it too! They want the marketing benefits provided by enticing flyers with FF miles and bonuses, and building loyalty with status comps, but without having to pay for them with the "free" flights and upgrades that those programs inevitably cost.

But there is a gap between the time frequent flyers earn the mileage and when they spend it. For months, or even years, the FF will accumulate miles, giving much needed revenue to the airline. Only later, when s/he tries to redeem the miles, will the FF begin to realize that s/he has been bilked. At this point, most of those customers will angrily leave the airline. And the airline will be in worse shape than previously, as now it has acquired a reputation for dishonest business dealings.

Most marketing people realize this. It's far cheaper to keep an existing customer, than it is to acquire a new one. And it takes years for a business to develop a good reputation. But that good reputation can be destroyed very quickly!

But Kellner and his bean counters are only looking at this month's income statement. If they can sell one extra full-fare ticket today, they don't care if their tactics might lose them many more repeat customers over the long run.



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"Read my lips! No more benefit cuts!"...Gordon Bethune

As a pr and political consultant, I am intrigued by your post. Our primary business is to shape the outcome of decision making processes. Sometimes that involves "forcing" decisions that someone doesn't want to make, but of course it costs extra.

While we have done several economic development projects that targeted companies, I think of only one project we took on that actually sought to make a company do something that it wasn't going to do (and didn't want to.) We were hired by the contractor of a local workforce agency to embarass an apparel manufacturer into paying the workforce board more money to "retrain" workers it had laid off after many years of faithful service. I will let you figure the rest out.

In this case, I don't think you will be able to swing public sentiment to your side. Imagine the story:

"BusinessLast: Overpaid Execs Outraged by CO's Refusal to Give Away First Class Seats -- Beleagured Employees, Aunt Edna from Iowa Applaud Airline's Firm Stand Against Corporate Handouts

HOUSTON- Consumer groups, the American Federation of Labor-CIO and Aunt Edna Schlipkof from Cedar Rapids, Iowa lauded Continental Airlines Chairman and CEO Gordon Bethune Today for his firm stand against corporate greed. Said Aunt Edna, a retired Bell System operator who describes herself as a frequent flyer, "I fly once every ten years to attend the Pioneers reunion and those corporate fat cats, oooh, I just can't stand them. They think they are so important with their laptops and cell phones. My retirement has lost a third of its value, it's time someone put them in their place. Mr. Bethune is a good christian man."....

DCA_DR's proposal, however, differs in a number of important ways from most lobbying campaigns.

Leverage, which you are right to bring up, is one area of uncertainty. What type of financial leverage do FF's have on airlines? If recent comments by US Air execs are any indication, it is less than we would like to believe. Also, despite the onboard announcements, how much choice do we actually have when we fly?

I bring leverage up because CO knows exactly how much leverage we have and everything else about us. Unlike the classic "grass roots" scenario, which exploits the informational vacuum in which many congressmen operate, CO will have the upper hand in information.

An additional point to consider is that in the typical "flood of faxes" scenarios congressmen tend to think they are getting a good deal. You are potentially trading your one vote, or your limited contributions or volunteer hours for action on one of the thousands and thousands of issues that come before him. As long as it doesn't make anyone upset and no one else has a stake in it, what does he care about where a road goes/how much the depletion allowance is, etc. These campaigns work because the congressman is giving you a good which you perceive to have a very high value, but which may be seen as worthless by most people and which has a very low cost to him.

With CO, the situation is nearly inverted. You are asking CO to give up something very valuable for something that it may feel is easy to come by or at the very least, is not very valuable: a customer. Unlike a vote, or campaign help, which are both infrequent and difficult to obtain , consumer purchases happen everyday. If webfares have taught airlines anything, it is that flyers aren't as loyal as they claim to be and that it isn't wise to undercut yourself just to win their business.

Another point to consider is whether your request is reasonable. There are many things that public officials (and airlines for that matter) won't or can't do and you are wasting your time trying to get them. Skilled political operators are engaged in the process of discovering and maximizing possibilities and this is a process that must be considered before you make your request. Since a permanent 80% discount is probably not within the realm of possibility, you have to figure out what is and work from there. Incidentally, this is the area where good lobbyists earn their pay (because they usually have to convince their clients to change their expectations!).

Finally, you have to be credible. In most campaigns, this would mean people believe your position has broad support. In this case, however, I would just concentrate on convincing CO of your sincerity and not coming off as a bunch of cranks.

Apart from boycotting the airline(unlikely), I don't think that numbers are going to sway CO. They already know who their elite flyers are and aren't likely to be convinced to change their analysis on the basis of a letter. To me, the best strategy would be to appeal to emotion, assure them of your loyalty and urge them to the right thing. Tell them how much you value their efforts, etc. etc. You understand how difficult the airline environment is and are offering this suggestion out of a desire to see them succeed. Share a story(real or imagined), about why CO is "your airline." So on.

I wouldn't present CO with a blunt "take it or leave it," because at this point, most execs in the airline industry will just tell you to leave it. Without going on for pages and pages, this is general advice that I believe would effective in the current environment. Try it on for size.

jh

It is my humble assertion that what I lack in experience is largely made up by the use of logic, i.e., it is illogical to give away your best product when you can sell it at a premium.


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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by freeupgrade:

3. PradaFA, you have got to be kidding me - you and your nonrev friends are lucky to have any seat at all (in this economy) - let alone taking one from a Gold or PLT Elite because they lost Gordos dumb HOKEY game. Then you have the nerve to say how you love PLT's while at the same time telling people to buy full fare F tickets - yeah right. Really sincere of you.

I'm not taking anything, from anyone. If the seat was Gold/PLT elite, they'd be sitting in it.

Yes I did say buy a BF/F ticket. That would solve your problem & you wouldn't have to play HoKeY. Simple solution.

I'm done with this post. Have fun guys

Congratulations, folks, you have been officially "baited" since the first post of this thread by one of the people for whom you put food on the table. They must be rolling in the aisles at airlinecrew.net.
But for Resagent86, none of these people have ever added anything to this forum besides a contentious, adversarial attitude when their knowlege and insight could be so helpful. Such a pity.

Just ignore them and they will go away.

Agreed. On the troll scale, I give this one about a 2. Thank you, please drive through.

You must be the same people who choose to complain about everything onboard from the food to the weather. If you are so miserable flying Continental, fly someone else. If a buisness first seat is so important to you, pay for it. My job would be much easier if you did take Northwest.

Furthermore "Joey"...I can picture you. You are the type that come on the aircraft with your cheap suit and dated carry on bag. You are talking on your cell phone with an earpiece oblivious to those around you. On your way back to coach while counting the remaining first class seats you stop and peruse the free magazine selection(if you have not already picked up a free magazine in the airport)thus holding up the boarding process. Once you get to the back you ask if I have a closet to hang your jacket, even though you know that we don't have closets in coach. You act perturbed and turn on your heel and throw your bag and jacket in the overhead bin. Finally the flight has boarded and the door has shut you have asked me 3 times about an upgrade and you are still on your headset cell phone. We have finally taken off for our 45 minute flight to Boston from Newark , I approach your row and offer you peanuts and a drink. You say "is this all there is?" and then ask for 3 extra bags of peanuts. Then you order decaf coffee with skim milk, orange juice and a water. I hand you your drinks as we are on final descent and you hand the oj back and say I didn't want ice. Now we have landed and you jump up as soon as the seatbelt sign is off, even though you can't stand upright yet. You try to reach out and around to grab your bag and now wrinkled jacket. You also are on your cellphone asking if the car service is there yet loud enough for the entire plane to hear. You are the only person who thinks that you are a bigshot, the real bigshots are the people with manners and an ounce of consideration for those around them.