1. As an AA EXP, I can tell you I do not miss CO None Pass at all (was CO Gold for several years). What a scam it has become - it is very sad.

2. When Gordo started playing HOKEY, I said Aloha. What B.S. it is. I cannot even believe people are so stupid to play it. Although I will give him credit for thinking it up.

3. PradaFA, you have got to be kidding me - you and your nonrev friends are lucky to have any seat at all (in this economy) - let alone taking one from a Gold or PLT Elite because they lost Gordos dumb HOKEY game. Then you have the nerve to say how you love PLT's while at the same time telling people to buy full fare F tickets - yeah right. Really sincere of you.

4. I will also tell you this, One pass award program is such a fraud. Recently I did a search on ITN for award seats (E category) LAX-HNL. I checked the next calendar date where it showed J=9 and E=0. That's right, Prada, u should have taken that flight. There were 9 employee seats being saved for you and your friends in J and 0 avail. for Gold or PLT in E for hard earned awards.
Would it have killed CO to have made 1 or 2 of the reamining 9 seats in BF avail for awards?
Simply put, CO One Pass deserves to be called Extortion Pass.

We've had these conversations before.

Here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/004489.html

and here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/004723.html

where we said:

Again, let me point out the subtle problems where the strategy falls apart there.

For CO to place a value on their BF product so high that they will not allow their best customers to upgrade to it using the miles they earned whilst giving CO much needed revenue, and then to say to those best customers "it is worth too much to us to let you have it, but every FA and CSR in the free world can just have it, no questions asked" That is a slap in the face. Then, to put those same FAs and CSRs in charge of deciding if you get those last minute upgrades, that is a backslap in the other direction. Let's call this the resentment factor.

Typical resentment factor manifistation (I've see this): As that continues to be played out, this "resentment factor" nullifies any high-yield strategy.

It is generally accepted in business that it is 10 times harder to win a customer back than keep one happy. But, they don't follow standard business practices down Houston way these days I guess.

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and here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/006065.html


And finally here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/006002.html

where I made the point to CalPilot:

I have heard from more CO elite flyers than you could imagine, each saying (and in some circumstances calling or writing CO and Gordo the Liar) with the following paraphrased sentiment:

"I fly over 100,000 miles a year with these guys...spend over $50,000 a year with these guys...I beg them for a lousy upgrade into a normal sized seat for a six - eight - ten hour flight...offer them more money and tons of frequent flyer miles that are supposed to be worth something...the CSR/Concierge/President's club agent/readcoat/gate agent says that I am not entitled to it...nothing can be done...they say we don't care how many times over you make platinum, there are no upgrades after the 3 day window is in effect...then I walk onto the plane past empty seats in first...past six FAs sitting in first giggling at me...past the buddy of the guy who just told me there was no availability sitting in first...past the same agent who controls the upgrades sitting in first...I'm sending a nasty letter...this is my last flight with these clowns..."

I don't think a person seriously concerned about declining revenues and furloughs at their company would care that the staff is following "all the technicalities of the rules" while they flaunt getting what the customer perceives he deserves based upon loyalty.

How would you feel if you went to eat at a favorite restaurant, where you eat and spend big bucks every week, see empty tables, ask to be seated, the host tells you he has no room at a table for you - you have to eat standing elbow to elbow at the bar, then all of the waiters suddenly take the open seats at the tables?

Would you understand that they had some technical right to sit there, or would you go to one of the other 5 restaurants on the block where they have seats and are happy to get your money weekly?

Man, CO has burned it's customers big time this year and last year. Don't justify it because the current rule structure allows for it. That doesn't make it right and doesn't help your job security.

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CO does not hear and will not change, at least until there is a change in upper management.

Hrrmmph...clearly you have not flown enough.

David, I was wondering where you were!

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-27-2002).]

An airline can use one of the policies:

1. An upgrade will be given only if that seat can be absolutely guaranteed to not be sold.

2. A certain amount of upgradeable seats are set aside as the cost of OnePass system.

For 1, you cannot give such a guarantee until the last 20 minutes or so before the departure. Since no upgrades can happen in the last 3 days, such a policy which solely concentrates on revenue essentially means no one shoudl get upgrades. An airline can certainly use this policy but airlines like CO are too dishonest to admit it explicitly because their marketing will throw a fit. After all, they need to sucker in more people to continue to fly CO and pony up the HoKeY fares with the hope that they will get an upgrade.

So I am not against the policy of revenue maximization. Just have truth-in-advertising.

Gordon wants to have his pizza and eat it too. Not at my expense.

Good point. You will note that lotteries are governed by strict rules of disclosure to prevent them from turning into scams.
I would have no problem if HoKeY was legally considered a lottery and the appropriate rules applied.

I've been doing a lot of flying....NOT on CO

Actually everyone has been holding their own very well on both sides of this issue. I hate to muck-up the arguments with a polarizing presence. - but as I said, these are not new discussions.

Clearly I have flown enough to know that NW can be just as stingy as CO when it comes to upgrade seats. Try upgrading the DTW-NRT runs, or pretty much any intra-Asia flight. It often proves VERY difficult, if not impossible.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

You do realize that there are many travelers (incl. FTers) who ROUTINELY score HoKeY upgrades. You're making it sound as if its a once-in-a-lifetime event, and that's just not the case.

Granted, there are some routes where upgrades may prove very difficult, but that is par for the course at pretty much every airline.



------------------
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

The arguments being posted on this board against HoKeY are just not persuasive.

First of all, you are arguing that elites should be entitled to preferential pricing (in the form of a 60-80% discount) on CO's highest margin product. While such a discount would be truly wonderful, it really isn't reasonable to expect it.

CO likely makes more money on the five or six thousand dollar (or more) BF fare than they do on $50,000 of domestic flying in discount economy. Despite whatever value CO places on your loyalty (and I will leave that to your estimation), it really doesn't make business sense for them to give away a BF seat to maintain it.

It seems to me that the only legitimate complaint you can have against CO is with its pricing, not its OP upgrade policy. Even then, though, the original demand of a greater than 80% discount comes close to being in bad faith. If someone asked your business for a discount of that order, what would your response be? I know what mine would be: "go to hell."

What I still don't understand is why members of this board feel *entitled* to these discounts (call them upgrades if you like)? To me the only people who are *entitled* to a bf seat are those who pay for it. Like you or me, CO can set its prices, and the market can take them or leave them.

*Deserve* doesn't enter into the equation. For the record, I think that everyone deserves to sit in BF. I also think that everyone deserves to have to live with dignity, have enough to eat, feel safe, etc. That, however, is a utopian vision and for better or worse CO, like the rest of the world, is not a utopia.

By the way, I also think that your secretary deserves to make as much as you (even if your salary has to be lowered to meet his/hers) and that a family from the inner city deserves to live in the same neighborhood as you (we'll just turn your house into a duplex). After all, this is America and we are all equal.

Secondly, some of you have directed anger and 'resentment" toward CO line employees. Those are statements that condemn themselves and I hope that CO employees know that they are not reflective of the attitude of the majority of FT'ers.

jh

avek00:
Do you use the galileo site to ascertain in advance if "I" seats are available before calling, booking a flight and upgrading??? I have never had a problem in getting an upgrade if I knew seats were available in the I bucket before calling. I usually fly out of JFK, and I concede that this would have to be easier than out of DTW, or MSP, since the eniter country is fighting for seats thru these hubs instead of mostly locals thru JFK.

AS Flyer, PradaFA, others:

Just letting you know that MANY appreciate, support and understand why our hard-working airline employees belong to unions! You are the ones who make traveling enjoyable for us!

Everyone here is a business expert; anyone know anything about politics? Quit wasting your time on this board complaining, and organize and complain to someone who matters. I'm willing to bet that less than 10% of the people claiming to have "written letters to Gordon" have put crayon to paper.

When the FDA tried to regulate dietary supplements, the supplement manufacturers said to the elderly "the government wants to take away your vitamins." The response to this proposed regulation REMAINS the LARGEST grassroots effort on the Hill. Members couldn't use their fax machines for days. In the end, the FDA not only didn't get their law, Congress passed another law (DSHEA) that restricted the FDA's ability to regulate these products.

I can sell a health insurance plan to your employer that limits your medical equipment reimbursement to $2500. They read it and bought it knowing what they were getting. But if I turn down your request for a $13,000 electric wheelchair, you'll send a camera crew to my house asking why I'm depriving you of your civil rights. And you'll win!

Let's face it, folks. It's their job to make a profit, it's your job to get the best price. Use public opinion and grassroots lobbying to your advantage. Organize a fax campaign explaining your displeasure. Plan one month where you will ALL fly a different airline (you only need 90 for plat, you can spare the segments). Document the amount of money you spent with someone else (believe me, CO will notice the drop in revenue if you make them aware up front). And threaten to do it again. Or contact another airline and tell them what you are willing to do in exchange for a best price on their best product. I know a group of 30 guys that renegotiate with their health clubs this way every year.

If everyone on this board is as important as they say they are, thousands of dollars are being wasted daily on your meaningless writings. Organize, make your writings worth something, and change the system.

But anytime someone organizes frequent flyers, they become a business person who sells the access they have to you instead of working on your behalf. Is it time for a non-profit to represent American travelers?

Question for all your NW upgrade boosters:
aside from Asia (where on CO I've always gotten my upgrade with miles at time of purchase), how can you saw NW is much better. I was attempting to use a NW credit and CO miles to upgrade on a NW flight, 'from any northeast city (including DTW) to either AMS, CDG or FRA leaaving on any Wed, Thurs and returning the following Sun or Mon.... during June, July, Aug, Sept 2003--- sorry no upgrades available was the reponse from NW, I then tried Jan & Feb 2003--- again nothing!! And I was not looking at the cheapest fares, but rates of 1200+. At least with CO HoKeY, I'm on a waitlist and as a Platinum I've cleared CO's waitlist 100% of the time in the past. Now perhaps NW is saving those seats for non-revs, (only kidding)... but seriously CO has been good to me and I'm getting slightly tired of all this CO bashing. As if every other airline is soooooo generous with upgrades, free tickets etc. Just check out any other forum, you'll see lots & lots of complaints and problems.

JaredH:
If CO really does not want to allow upgrades to their BF product, thay should just state that the program does not allow this. I could accept the fact, and make a decision to stay or move on.
In reality, they lie for comnpetitive purposes to present the illusion of availability of these rewards as a reward for giving them my other business.

I received my statement today from CO and the following is a direct quote:"ALLPASS UPGRADE REWARDS. Upgrade to First Class or BusinessFirst with the purchase of most published adilt Economy Class fares (excluding certain promotional fares). Upgrade to BusinessFirst automatically using miles with Y,H or K fares. When purcahsing a B,V,Q or T fare, a non-refundable service fee applies in addition to the miles. For more information, contact Continental Reservations. Upgrade rewards are capacity controlled, and standby at the airport is not permitted".
Notice the word "automatically". Do you think that the average non-FTer CO person does not intepret this to be exactly what is says. I do not beleive that in this average person's mind the last sentence in the paragraph supercedes the "automatically". Notice that no where does it say that there are no upgrades within 72 hours.
We can disagree, but I personally view this as deliberate deceptive advertising.