Vulcan

Lots of things have been changed in our society because of lobbying, letter campaigns, etc.

I strongly agree with you that the major problem CO has at this time is the way int'l upgrade are handled.

How can we, as a strong lobbying group, go about changing this one issue?

Any ideas?

There really is no good way to get a change of philospohy. I could think of a lot of ways CO could make life easier for true plats to upgrade internationally, but many of us have written letters till we are blue in the face without any results. From a business standpoint, I can only tell you that we could only impact the situation if we had real economic power to move big international business from CO to someone else. Obvioulsy, we don't. We are really just a fly on the elephants a**, and the powers that be don't care about us.
Fot the time being, I personally fly NW because I know in advance that I will be in a BC seat, rather than sweating it out. I know quite a few other CO FTers that do the same. Note that this pertains to flights to Asia and NOT Europe. CO could make life easier if we had access to view "R" inventory on-line like we can view NW "D" and "I", but I wouldn't hold my breath. This allow for detailed planning BEFORE calling CO to have all my ducks in a row, rather than get some "anti-ResAgent86" on the line and wasting 1/2 hour of both of our time. (I am reminded of the International Res Agent I spent time on the phone with the other night who insisted that CO had no thru tariff between GUM and SIN, via NRT, despite the fact that CO.COM and Travelocity both showed it.) On the soap box again.


[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 10-26-2002).]

Unlike many of my fellow Elite peers, I have to side with the employees and say that their non-rev policy is fair.

Having non-rev'd myself numerous times, especially on trans-oceanic segments on other airlines, I appreciate the 72-hour rule and other rules like it: you would too if you're standing-by in a foreign location anxious to get home. It's a privledge earned by the employees ...and even as a CO Platinum Elite, I have no problems freeing up F/J seats --even ahead of mine-- for the sake of the employees. In the scheme of things, there are so few non-revs in proportion to the rev passengers on-board, that their appearance hardly impacts all flights at all times. (And as someone with decent non-rev perks including good seniority status, I must say I've seen coach seats more often than first class ones compared to my luck with Elite upgrades...if I'm even able to get on-board a flight as a non-rev.)

However, I do have a gripe with this situation --and it's not with the non-revs, but with the revenue control freaks within the airlines, CO included. HoKeY, 72 hours, misc. silly rules aside, I think it's outrageous that more seats aren't elgible for award redemption, whether it be for upgrades or tickets. If a seat is available for sale, it should be available to anyone that wants it regardless of how they plan to pay for it. If the airlines want to limit their liability by limiting the number of reward seats, they should have thought about that before they gave away free miles, status upgrades, etc. and not at the time they release seats for award use. Or they should just up the mileage requirement for award travel.

What they shouldn't do is what Continental appears to have done: up it "artificially" by forcing their travelers to redeem exhorbitantly high "EasyPass" awards and not make Standard awards available. What they should do is eliminate the two award types and increase redemption requirements by 30% and make every seat available for sale available for redemption -or- let Elites use Standard awards for all seats available while non-elites would need to redeem at the "easypass" level for the same seat. At least this would skew the program to the elites ...while encouraging non-elites to gain/retain elite status to make use of their miles. (After all, isn't the purpose of a FF program to keep flyers loyal ...and not to piss-off the most frequent, most valuable traveler?)

Weathboy. Please note that I do not take this personally, unlike some others, but you and I could not disagree more.

Whay is CO in business, to give its employees a perk or to maintain and build its international business. As an employee, would it not bother you to know that,as you are walking up to BF, there are 3 Plats watching you,sitting in coach and vowing NEVER to play HoKeY again and to start looking for a new preferred airline?
Those people who have lost the HoKeY lottery and who have witnessed non-revs moving to BF have very strong emotions. You can do a search and find some of their comments.
In today's tough times, with layoffs, all employees should be bending over backwards to gain and maintain customers. CO (the folks in IAH) obvioulsy doesn't get the message or does not care when they have a policy that irritates their best customers no-end and which many consider a slap in the face. I can't get off the soap box

I have often defended employee BF upgrades b/c it is a by-product of a system that CO believes helps its bottom line.

HOWEVER,
The Hokey rules are not customer friendly and should be overhauled in a way to protect CO's revenue and allow for leisure Elites to upgrade. Maybe something like a confirmed upgrade 60-90 days out on H,K,Y for Elites with absolutely no changes allowed?

Vulcan, I agree with your sentiments but not with your place of blame: compensation for airline employees is low and travel benefits is a perk that keeps most employees happy and on a level playing field with other comperable occupations.

How Platinums end up in coach is more of an issue for revenue control than for non-rev employees.

When ever I took a first-class seat as a non-rev, I never thought to myself "ha-ha, I'm showing those high-revenue earning passengers stuck in coach a lesson or two..." Instead, I thought, "phew, thank God there's an empty seat somewhere on this plane, and what a treat it is to sit in 1st class --it pays for all the stress/hard work gained with minimal pay the airline employee needs to deal with..."

Domestically, unless an agent is breaking a rule (and rules are broken by many people across every industry), a paying passenger always takes priority over a non-rev leisure traveler. (Although I must say that if anyone were to benefit from the no-standby-for-free rule going into effect, it'd be the non-revs.) Internationally, within the 72 hour window, seats filled with non-rev's are a perk deserved by the employees or are best left empty to preserve the value of the seat. (As much as I enjoy using Platinum status to sit up-front and get bummed whenever I see an empty seat when I'm in the back, I equally love it when the cabin has empty seats and the service is more personalized/dedicated to my needs.)

Still, the fault of the process is with revenue control and the wizards at OnePass who do not give away more available seats to award redeemers. If an award was available at the same frequency seats available for sale are, the playing field would be much more level for all those vying for a seat up-front ...whether it be for revenue (cash or miles) or non-rev (employee leisure travel) passengers.

I cannot fault a flight attendant or a ramp agent or some other employee for the misdeeds of an executive in Houston or wherever the airline HQ may be who wants to wring every ounce of cash out of a flight -even at the expense of the most loyal, most frequent revenue-generating passengers.

As has been stated numerous times, CO makes every effort to maximize the revenue earned from its International J product. Furthermore, BusinessFirst commands a significant price premium, especially on BF routes ex-EWR. Therefore, why should CO give away a product (by allowing deep-discount tix upgrades or generous Standard Reward redemption) that it is able to sell at top dollar?

The 72-hour rule is necessary not only because it cracked down on ficticious bookings, but because it also discourages last-minute ticket buyers from buying Y and upgrading vs. buying a J tix outright.

[This message has been edited by avek00 (edited 10-26-2002).]

Classy....answer to your question.

You'd better believe that I would have been the first to jump up. I've done it. I've helped out in a medical emergency relaying information to the cockpit crew....I've been reseated at an exit in a planned emergency. The first thing flight attendants are trained to do in an emergency is to look for able-bodies assistants, and off-duty or deadheading crewmembers are your greatest resource.

Hope that helps.

Since this is a seroius question, I'll answer with a serious response.

We would help out. Crews are told to look for Able Bodied Assists on ever leg, of every flight we take. Our first choice is an employee. Be they nonrev'ing, deadheading, or traveling as a revenue pax (yes some of actually pay for seats, I know I have.) That is one of the responsibilties that comes with nonreving

There is no question in my mind that non-revs do not belong in any seat that any paying passenger is willing to pay for, either in cash or in miles, and I also take this personally. Yes, the non-revs have jobs that are not always easy and yes, they deserve some consideration, but is it a more difficult job to be involved with four flight legs in a day as an attendent than as a paying passenger who also needs to work a full day in between? Slogging around the northeast on business being consigned to those miserable JungleJets much of the time only has as its compensation the earning of enough miles to be truly comfortable on longer flights, and they are making it much more difficult for us than it needs to be.
If you read Vulcan's posts, you will see how many of us are now treating the HoKeY and 72 hour CO rules for upgrading, even to Europe (while Ed only travels to Asia), and that is to use NW or KL (or AA) any time CO that will not immediately confirm an upgraded seat in the front of the plane. Our rule is never to play HoKeY, because if we were to end up in the back watching non-revs and/or empty seats up front, there would be a lot of steam coming out of our ears.
We understand that the dollars that we spend on NW's B fares are not the dollars that CO would like to get for its BF seats, but you can be sure that that amount (plus the miles used) is a heck of a lot more than any subtle benefits it might get from giving it away free to a non-rev or leaving it empty (or, as posited by Weatherboy "to preserve the value of the seat."). The value of the seat is zero once the plane takes off without somebody having paid something to put his butt in it, and the list price J fare is slowly becoming an obsolete fiction in today's economic and informational environments (witness all of the Z specials for the last six weeks of this year and be prepared to see a whole lot more of them as time goes by).


[This message has been edited by monitor (edited 10-26-2002).]

Not necessarily. The bottom line is that there are many pax out there who will eschew buying a J (or HoKeY) ticket if they are able to upgrade from cheap tickets. So while CO might lose in some instances with empty BF seats, it comes out ahead overall by forcing pax to pony up some $$$ to fly in BF.

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Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a proud member of the SkyTeam Alliance.

It's very clear to me why CO has the BF policy that it does. I fly to Asia once every month, and to London twice a month. On virtually every flight, there is someone who was on the waitlist but didn't get cleared for one of the few BF seats that are set aside as reward seats. Time after time, I see these folks whip out their credit card and pay thousands of dollars for one of the unsold BF seats. If CO were to set aside more BF reward seats, they would see those last-minute revenue upgrades cease. On my flight to NRT last week, they sold at least 3 (that I saw) and maybe even more were sold after I boarded. I don't know how true it is, but a redcoat I spoke with said his friend in revenue management told him that on all CO BF flights, there are a minimum of 3 seats set aside as reward seats, and a maximum of 6, on a 777.

Gee, a lightbulb just went on in my head. I wonder if the non-revs ever make an "extra" reservations in "J" in order to "enhance" their chances of moving up to a B/F seat?

Nah! It would/could not happen. What could I be thinking. On my trip to HNL a few days ago, three (3) non-revs were moved up to fill the last empty seats in B/F outta only 20 total.

MisterNice

This is very true. It seems like people are heading to airlines like Jet Blue, Southwest and Frontier in droves these days. None of these airlines offer a premium cabin. Maybe the perfect answer to the dilemna of nobody being willing to pay for these seats any longer is to eliminate them. The airlines could spread the seats in economy out to allow just a couple inches more leg room and add a few more rows. This way there would be no argument over who was upgraded and who wasn't.

Gee, a lightbulb went on in MY head. I wonder if customers ever do the same to enhance their chances of getting an upgrade. Nah, couldn't happen - what was I thinking?

Get a grip. What a tasteless accusation. I'm sure there are CO employees that would stoop to this level, just as there are people anywhere, but by and large CO employees are a good group of people. They aren't spending their off time scheming new ways to pis* off the business traveler. Airline employees are generally happy to have any seat and really wouldn't waste their time tying up seats this way.