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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 10:58 am
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
Shoe bombing is not a viable threat. Never was. One lone loonie tried it unsuccessfully. Others tried bra bombs and could have had greater success - so why isn't every woman being disrobed, patted down or x-ray'd? Isn't that a viable threat too? Or we only rank our threats based on how palatable the screening process is for people?

Liquid bombs are not a viable threat. You're ignoring the fact that liquid explosives need highly controlled environments for mixture and transport. This stuff can't be cooked up in someone's apartment, tossed in a shampoo bottle, carried to the airport, taken on a plane and then detonated undetected. It doesn't work that way.

These lab and controlled demos are useless. Show me a demo where someone creates such a bomb in a totally uncontrolled environment using accessible ingredients, is transported just like any baggage and then detonated in a way which would not be detected by others and stopped.
Shoe bombing is viable, bad luck and basic misunderstanding of weather caused the shoe bomb to fail, not the heroic actions of a passenger or FAM (not that dealing him the beat down of his life was not heroic!). It is a viable threat and you can say it isn't til you are blue in the face and it won't matter. I could make a shoe bomb that you would never notice until it blew up or was xrayed, it would take me about 30 minutes. The threat is there, until better testing procedures can be designed or deplyed, these are the current steps taken to mitigate the threat.

I disagree with your assessment on the ability to transport. The results can be unpredictable, but the opportunity is there. You are ignoring the fact that it doesn't have to be mixed up on the plane, some liquids are stable enough to be transported. Even Nitrocellulose is a possibility because it is reasonably stable. You keep looking at it from a point of view that you are worried about blowing up in the process, most people that will use this type of method don't. A whole new world of possibilities opens up when you don't care about making it through, they are willing to do things that scientists say are impossible because they don't care. As for putting the stuff together on camera in a government sponsored video... Honestly? Have you lost your mind? Every halfwit high school kid and college kid would make the same bomb in the same way and we would have a base stupidity contest to see which group lost more hands or people. That would be irresponsible and then the backlash would be epic. The lawsuits after a month would break the government in half. The LAG rules are here for the foreseeable future due to the lack of deployable tech and the cost of the testing equipment.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:01 am
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Originally Posted by TSORon
You should. The technical requirements for what you propose are far more difficult to overcome than you might think. The terrorist that does not think of these things is likely to find himself in the middle of a premature detonation of his own device, thereby not hitting his intended target.

Some of these things involve transporting an unstable liquid, EMI interference between the initiator and the transmitter, transmission harmonics, metal shielding the transmitter, etc. Building bombs is an extremely dangerous job, get it wrong only once and chances are you will not survive the error. Many would-be terrorists have found this out.

This does not make accomplishing the job impossible, just quite a bit more complicated than you seem to understand.
While you may know something about bombs and how to build one I know a great deal about how aircraft are constructed. Between the floor under your feet to the baggage areas is a very short distance. It would take a very small RF output to act as a triggering device.

If a person is willing to blow themselves up I really don't think they would be overly concerned about a premature explosion if it happened. But that does bring up an excellent point.

These types of bombs are to unstable to check yet are not if in carry-on baggage?

No one said building bombs is a safe job. But I do think the people who would do so have enough training to do so and have detonation at a time of their choosing.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:02 am
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Originally Posted by NY-FLA
And you believe the equipment used in baggage at any airport can differentiate between explosive and benign liquids?
Not hardly. The x-ray tells us that there is a liquid in the bag, from there the TSO is the one that needs to determine if the liquid is dangerous. Some liquids require special transport containers, others are more dense, and since the chemicals that cause explosions are well known it is possible to test for them. Which is why we have ETD machines, test strips, and other technology to meet this requirement.

It's also really telling that any mention of costs from TSA or individual TSO's comes to what the testing equipment would cost the agency. Apparently the cost to pax of throwing away completely harmless liquids, of buying the airport $4 per bottle "screened" water vice the Albertson's $1.49 a skid brand, of the time spent (and expense to the airlines) of dealing with checked bags that would have been perfectly safe in the cabin is apparently not worthy of mention.
A more rational policy is apparently being implemented with powders. Perhaps someone could consider adapting this to liquids.
The TSA spends quite a bit of time, energy, and funding trying to tell passengers to NOT take liquids over a certain size through the checkpoint. If the folks ignore these attempts, refuse to read the signs, do not listen to the announcements, or think that they are a special case and must be exempt from the requirements, then is it really TSAs fault? I think not. People have to become responsible for their own actions eventually, but has become far to common for people to try and shift blame for their own shortcomings instead of just taking responsibility for themselves.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:02 am
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
Shoe bombing is viable, bad luck and basic misunderstanding of weather caused the shoe bomb to fail, not the heroic actions of a passenger or FAM (not that dealing him the beat down of his life was not heroic!). It is a viable threat and you can say it isn't til you are blue in the face and it won't matter.
And yet, absolutely no airplanes have been brought down by shoe bombs since Richard Reid's failed attempt years ago, either before or since TSA made the shoe carnival mandatory or in any of the countries without the mandatory shoe carnival.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:10 am
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Leading Causes of Death in America - 2006

1. Heart Disease 631,636 (26 percent)
2. Cancer 559,888 (23.1 percent)
3. Stroke 137,119 (5.7 percent)
4. Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases (Lung Diseases) 124,583 (5.1 percent)
5. Accidents 121,599 (5 percent)
6. Diabetes 72,449 (3 percent)
7. Alzheimer's Disease 72,432 (3 percent)
8. Influenza and Pneumonia 56,326 (2.3 percent)
9. Kidney Disease 45,344 (1.9 percent)
10. Septicemia (infection of the blood) 34,234 (1.4 percent)

Combined, the top ten causes of death in the US accounted for 76.5 percent of all deaths combined. The following causes were numbers 11-15 on the list. None of these accounted for more than 1 percent of total US deaths in 2006.

* Suicide
* Chronic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis
* High Blood Pressure
* Parkinson's Disease
* Homicide

FROM

Hmmm, terror attacks don't even warrent a footnote, unless you include terror attacks in homicide statistics. So TSA 'protects' us from something that is significantly less than 1% of all causes of death in the US.

Terrorism risk assement #1 pdf
GAO Risk assement report pdf
DHS Terrorism risk assement report pdf
Harold and Kumar meet the DHS

I came across a numbingly-titled but intellectually honest paper called: “Incorporating Assessments of Terrorism Risk in Homeland Security Resource Allocation Decision Making: Closing the Gap Between Current and Needed Capabilities.” Its 10 pages are worth reading by anyone who cares about homeland security and risk, and who believes “the problem” is fixable. (The paper is available here; it appears to have been written to support an April 13-16 conference called “Risk-Informed Decision Making for HLS Resource Allocation;” information about what looks to be a thoroughly interesting conference can be found here).

Some excerpts from the paper [and my overly simplified interpretations]:

“Despite the best efforts of numerous experts from the government, industry, and academia, fully effective and transparent integration of risk assessments into DHS homeland resource allocation decision making remains an elusive goal.” [The theory is not working in practice.]

“The risk construct … [Risk = Threat x Vulnerability x Consequences] is logical, intuitively appealing, and consistent with conceptualizations of risk used in other domains. However, uncertainty inherent in deriving estimates for its components in the case of terrorism risk continues to compromise its usefulness in DHS resource allocation decision making. As a result, terrorism risk assessments have not played the prominent role they were expected to play in DHS resource allocation decision making. More robust and defensible methods for generating required inputs for this terrorism risk construct are required if it is to become an important factor in homeland security resource allocation decision making.” [The theory sounds good, but the data to use it aren't there.]

Risk Management:

“Significant perceived shortfalls in our current ability to generate defensible estimates of the threat of terrorism, terrorism vulnerability, and the consequences of terrorism continue to hamper DHS’ ability to effectively incorporate terrorism risk assessments into its resource allocation decision making process. In addition, predicting and/or measuring the risk reduction effect or payoff of terrorism risk management initiatives remain a complex and unresolved challenge.” [We can't defensibly calculate the values the formula needs; we also can't figure out the effect of reducing risk.]

Threat:
“[The] statistically oriented, historical frequency approach [to determine threat] is useful for that portion [of the] DHS’ “all hazards” mission space associated with natural catastrophic and accidental events. However, [that analytical approach] does not apply to the threat (i.e., probability of attack) of terrorism. Risk analysts assessing the risk of terrorist activities are not faced with accidental random loss-inducing outcomes or acts of nature. They must deal with the potential for harm and/or loss deliberately inflicted by intelligent and adaptive adversaries willing to operate outside normally accepted patterns of behavior. Simply identifying all potential terrorists is a monumental challenge. Predicting their behavior – i.e., which targets or kinds of targets terrorists may strike, how they will choose to strike (i.e. weapons and/or threat vector), and when they will strike is an even more daunting and uncertain element of terrorism risk assessment.” [Terrorism is a really different kind of threat.]

Vulnerability:
“Assessing the vulnerability of potential terrorism targets might seem to be a theoretically more tractable problem. However, it requires detailed knowledge of the target, the nature of the terrorist attack, and the circumstances under which it will occur. Thus, vulnerability assessment involves many of the same uncertainties encountered when assessing the intentions and capabilities of potential terrorist adversaries. Even where credible estimates are possible, the sheer magnitude of the task of assessing the vulnerabilities of every potentially lucrative terrorist targets in our open society is overwhelming.” [Everything is vulnerable to something.]

Consequences:
“Predicting the consequences of terrorism events also presents difficult intellectual, philosophical, and emotional challenges. Most previous catastrophic risk assessments have limited their prediction and/or measurement of consequences to direct effects which can usually be estimated in relatively straightforward, transparent, and reliable ways. These direct effects typically include human fatalities, injuries, and the direct economic cost of the physical damage inflicted. However, it is widely acknowledged that terrorism events usually result in a broad range of secondary or indirect effects or costs that can be more extensive, and often more important and long lasting….Not only are these secondary or indirect effects of terrorist events difficult to predict or measure, but knowing how to prioritize them, and/or to compare them with the consequences of catastrophic accidents and/or natural disasters remains an unanswered question with complex societal and emotional dimensions.” [Consequence streams approach singularity.]

Risk Mitigation Effectiveness/Cost-Effectiveness:
“Assessing the effectiveness or payoff of a terrorism risk mitigation measure might initially seem to be a reasonably straightforward challenge. However, the effectiveness or cost-effectiveness of any terrorism risk mitigation initiative is inevitably dependent upon, and confounded by the way terrorists react to that measure…. Related closely to the issue of predicting the effectiveness or cost-effectiveness of risk mitigation measures is deciding how much our Nation should be willing to allocate to terrorism risk reduction, or how great a risk of terrorism we should be willing to accept. In reaching this judgment it must be recognized explicitly that resources allocated to reducing the risk of terrorism impose an economic cost on the Nation since they are unavailable for other needs. Thus, anti-terror initiatives represent other opportunities foregone and must be evaluated as such.” [Perhaps money allocated to homeland security could help the Nation more if it were used for something other than homeland security.]

Maybe risk can be salvaged as a way to allocate homeland security resources effectively. If you are in that camp, I think you will find the paper — and the questions it contains for the conference panels — intriguing and thoughtful.

The problems we have experienced trying to get homeland security risk assessments correct might also signal an opportunity to try something fundamentally different. Maybe we have traveled long enough down the risk assessment path.

Last edited by AngryMiller; Sep 11, 2009 at 11:17 am Reason: moved quote tag in html
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:13 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
Shoe bombing is viable, bad luck and basic misunderstanding of weather caused the shoe bomb to fail not the heroic actions of a passenger or FAM (not that dealing him the beat down of his life was not heroic!).
Huh?

It is a viable threat and you can say it isn't til you are blue in the face and it won't matter. I could make a shoe bomb that you would never notice until it blew up or was xrayed, it would take me about 30 minutes. The threat is there, until better testing procedures can be designed or deployed, these are the current steps taken to mitigate the threat.
What about bra bombs and other legitimate 'threats'?

I disagree with your assessment on the ability to transport. The results can be unpredictable, but the opportunity is there. You are ignoring the fact that it doesn't have to be mixed up on the plane, some liquids are stable enough to be transported. Even Nitrocellulose is a possibility because it is reasonably stable.
The ability to premix something and detonate it successfully on the plane, or mix something on board has already been disproved a number of times by expert scientists - none of whom are on government payroll.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:14 am
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
While you may know something about bombs and how to build one I know a great deal about how aircraft are constructed. Between the floor under your feet to the baggage areas is a very short distance. It would take a very small RF output to act as a triggering device.
Quite true. But let me ask you, how much RF energy is floating around the average airport, or even the average neighborhood? Without paying detailed attention to shielding and frequency isolation, possible harmonic interference, and an entire host of other RF related issues, one is likely to be the center point in a premature detonation of a poorly constructed device.

If a person is willing to blow themselves up I really don't think they would be overly concerned about a premature explosion if it happened. But that does bring up an excellent point.
Oh, you could not be more wrong. If they are going to take the time to build the things then they are going to make every effort to get it to the target. If they only want to blow themselves up they could take it to some open field and have at it.

These types of bombs are to unstable to check yet are not if in carry-on baggage?
Most people pack things in their carry-ons that they think to fragile or important to pack in their checked baggage. If I were a bomber, I would want the thing close to me.

No one said building bombs is a safe job. But I do think the people who would do so have enough training to do so and have detonation at a time of their choosing.
Those that have survived their first attempts, maybe. Otherwise, well thats the reason we have BAOs and bomb squads. TSOs are trained, one of the most often trained agencies in government service, and all bombs must have certain common components or they are not bombs. And we still have experts available to us when we have questions or are uncertain.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:21 am
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
Your own post illustrates the unlikelihood of a successful liquid bomb
Yet liquid explosives have already been used successfully against aviation targets. Can you explain why you believe otherwise?
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:28 am
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Ronnie, while what you said about RFI/EMI, premature detonation, etc (think Japan's Red Army missle detonating outside Narita airport during the 80s), what good would it do to bring down one or two jet airliners? The terrorists, unlike TSA, want results for funding operations and wouldn't risk a major operation on a comercial airliner. The airliners hijacked on 9/11 weren't blown up over a city, instead they were used as guided missles to crash into the twin WTC towers. So the question becomes one of risk/cost benefits regarding TSA funding/SOPs. What level of security is good enough to satisfy TSA?
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 11:29 am
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Yet liquid explosives have already been used successfully against aviation targets. Can you explain why you believe otherwise?
Years ago someone used some nitroglycerine to set off an explosion on board - it did not take down the aircraft or cause significant damage, except to a passenger and some seats.

Not exactly the threat it's been made out to be. How about plastic explosives? Why are you people so fascinated with liquids and shoes? Why do you ignore everything else and only insist on liquids and shoes?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/...skthepilot201/
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 12:05 pm
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Vatch out for those German scientists

Originally Posted by gsoltso
Every halfwit high school kid and college kid would make the same bomb in the same way and we would have a base stupidity contest to see which group lost more hands or people.
And if they are 16 or over they qualify to win a Darwin Award. "Honoring those who improve the species...by accidentally removing themselves from it!"
Originally Posted by TSORon
and all bombs must have certain common components or they are not bombs.
How about no wires, no batteries, no electronics, no detonator? It was invented 100 years ago and used in one of the three largest attacks on the US mainland in the last 100 years. Everyone knows 9/11 and Oklahoma City, but I only found out about this one by watching PBS. Thanks, History Detectives. ^
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 12:22 pm
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Originally Posted by AngryMiller
Ronnie, while what you said about RFI/EMI, premature detonation, etc (think Japan's Red Army missle detonating outside Narita airport during the 80s), what good would it do to bring down one or two jet airliners? The terrorists, unlike TSA, want results for funding operations and wouldn't risk a major operation on a comercial airliner. The airliners hijacked on 9/11 weren't blown up over a city, instead they were used as guided missles to crash into the twin WTC towers. So the question becomes one of risk/cost benefits regarding TSA funding/SOPs. What level of security is good enough to satisfy TSA?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 12:24 pm
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
Years ago someone used some nitroglycerine to set off an explosion on board - it did not take down the aircraft or cause significant damage, except to a passenger and some seats.

Not exactly the threat it's been made out to be. How about plastic explosives? Why are you people so fascinated with liquids and shoes? Why do you ignore everything else and only insist on liquids and shoes?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/...skthepilot201/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka

The methods and procedures for detecting plastic explosives are pretty cut and dried. Liquids, well thats a different story.
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 12:32 pm
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The Pam Am bomb was placed on board by people who in today's airports TSA does not routinely screen.

So is that what TSA calls a good security plan?
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Old Sep 11, 2009 | 12:33 pm
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Originally Posted by Flaflyer
How about no wires, no batteries, no electronics, no detonator? It was invented 100 years ago and used in one of the three largest attacks on the US mainland in the last 100 years. Everyone knows 9/11 and Oklahoma City, but I only found out about this one by watching PBS. Thanks, History Detectives. ^
"a silent but intense flame, from twenty to thirty centimetres long"

Not a bomb, not an explosive. At best, an initiator. Interesting though, I had never heard of such a thing. I believe they call it an exothermic reaction by two chemicals. We get some BAO training on these things, but not a great deal. Not a significant threat I suppose, but interesting to watch.
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