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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 2:13 pm
  #76  
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Facts are facts indeed. The TSA is a whopping big waste of money, with its behavior detection approach conducted by inconsistent and poorly-performing employees being yet another sign of the organization being a waste of resources.
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 3:02 pm
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Originally Posted by TSORon
BDO’s find things significant with passengers every single day wally. I know you don’t believe that, but then again to see it you would first have to get your head out of the sand.
Prove it.

Oh, wait.

You're lying.

Forgot who I was talking to for a second.
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 4:10 pm
  #78  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Sure jimmie.

TSA and other airport security measures have always focused on the "things" that cause security concerns. Guns, bombs, flammables, etc. Finding them and preventing them from getting on an aircraft. But that has been shown to not work so well. The hijackers of 9/11 used that against us and thereby created the situation we have now. They brought non-prohibited items on board and used them to kill 3000+ people.
Ronnie, you can't even get the basics correct. Lax gate security was not the cause of the 9/11 hijackings. I know you and the rest of the TSA kool aid drinkers want everyone to believe this, but it is simply NOT the case. The 9/11 hijackings were planned and executed on the correct belief that once on board, the hijackers could take control of the aircraft with any number of implements available, because prior to 9/11, airline policy in force forbid crews from resisting a hijacking.

Originally Posted by TSORon
Thats what the BDOs and some other programs are designed to do. BDOs cant tell if a person is a terrorist, but they can tell if a person is exhibiting the signs of someone hiding something significant, and they can use that information to find out if what they are hiding is the intent to harm an aircraft or the passengers.
Your precious BDO program might be designed to find people who could post a danger to other passengers, but it hasn't been a success, has it?

By Thomas Frank, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON Fewer than 1% of airline passengers singled out at airports for suspicious behavior are arrested, Transportation Security Administration figures show, raising complaints that too many innocent people are stopped.

A TSA program launched in early 2006 that looks for terrorists using a controversial surveillance method has led to more than 160,000 people in airports receiving scrutiny, such as a pat-down search or a brief interview. That has resulted in 1,266 arrests, often on charges of carrying drugs or fake IDs, the TSA said.

The TSA program trains screeners to become "behavior detection officers" who patrol terminals and checkpoints looking for travelers who act oddly or appear to answer questions suspiciously.

Critics say the number of arrests is small and indicates the program is flawed.

"That's an awful lot of people being pulled aside and inconvenienced," said Carnegie Mellon scientist Stephen Fienberg, who studied the TSA program and other counterterrorism efforts. "I think it's a sham. We have no evidence it works."

TSA spokeswoman Ellen Howe said the program has been "incredibly effective" at catching criminals at airports. "It definitely gets at things that other layers of security might miss," Howe said.

In many cases, the extra scrutiny is a casual conversation with a TSA behavior officer that shows someone is innocent, Howe said. Studies are underway that analyze the program's effectiveness, she added.

The program has grown from 43 major airports last year to more than 150 airports, including some with just 20 flights a day. The number of behavior officers will jump from 2,470 to 3,400 by October.

The TSA has not publicly said if it has caught a terrorist through the program. The agency says that some who are arrested, particularly on fake ID charges, may be scouting an airport for a possible attack.

Some scientists say the TSA effort is just as likely to flag a nervous traveler as a terrorist.

"The use of these technologies for the purpose that the TSA is interested in moves into an area where we don't have proven science," said Robert Levenson, a psychologist at the University of California-Berkeley.

Although observers can perceive whether someone appears anxious or is acting deceptively, they can't tell whether that person is planning an attack or something such as an extramarital affair, Levenson said.

Levenson and Fienberg were part of a National Academy of Sciences team whose report last month said "behavioral surveillance" has "enormous potential for violating" privacy.

The report calls for more research and says surveillance should be used only as "preliminary screening" to find people who merit "follow-up investigation." That is how the TSA uses the program, Howe said.

Paul Ekman, a San Francisco psychologist who helped design the TSA program, said it can be effective. But it needs more study, he said.

"The shortcoming is, we don't know how many people are showing suspicious behaviors and aren't being noticed," Ekman said.
Let's see. No proven science, and all you are catching is evidence of non-aviation safety related criminal activity. And you wonder why courts are starting to rule against TSA?

Originally Posted by TSORon
Some of the folks out there have complained about the cost of the program. Perspective. How much did the hijackers of 9/11 cost the USA with their act of terrorism?
Again, the 9/11 lie. Does everyone in TSA have to sign a loyalty oath swearing they believe in this false statement?
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 4:48 pm
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El Al uses the same principles.

Should they stop doing it because they haven't had a successful hijacking in decades?
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 5:01 pm
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
El Al uses the same principles.
No they don't.

And what they do, they do correctly....
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 5:06 pm
  #81  
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
El Al uses the same principles.

Should they stop doing it because they haven't had a successful hijacking in decades?
Israel has five airports, a longstanding well-trained security force, and a country that has been in a state of perpetual vigilance since 1948.

Oh, and according to securitymanagement.com, "The strategy is based off an Israeli model, although U.S. behavior detection officers receive less training than their Israeli counterparts."
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 6:22 pm
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Originally Posted by halls120
Israel has five airports, a longstanding well-trained security force, and a country that has been in a state of perpetual vigilance since 1948.

Oh, and according to securitymanagement.com, "The strategy is based off an Israeli model, although U.S. behavior detection officers receive less training than their Israeli counterparts."
I don't doubt that fact and the level of screening is less than that in Israel. There has to be a compromise between efficiency and effectiveness. If this is it, I have no idea, but a standard has been set by a nation facing the same threats that we fear.
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 6:26 pm
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
I don't doubt that fact and the level of screening is less than that in Israel. There has to be a compromise between efficiency and effectiveness. If this is it, I have no idea, but a standard has been set by a nation facing the same threats that we fear.

A standard that the TSA does not meet, or attempt to meet.

Thus the TSA does not use the same principles....
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 6:55 pm
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
I don't doubt that fact and the level of screening is less than that in Israel. There has to be a compromise between efficiency and effectiveness. If this is it, I have no idea, but a standard has been set by a nation facing the same threats that we fear.
"There has to be a compromise between efficiency and effectiveness."

You're kidding, right?

What possible good can a BDO program be if it doesn't operate to the standard required to be effective?

Other than providing another stage for TSA's Kabuki Theatre?
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 7:23 pm
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
El Al uses the same principles.

Should they stop doing it because they haven't had a successful hijacking in decades?
El Al does it because they have had real hijackings for many years, they also do it because of an assault by terrorists in one of their airports. They even prevented a bombing of an aircraft. The difference is the Israeli's do it right and they have real layers of security in place. A lot more than X-raying luggage and badly trained TSO's and BDO's, several of the layers occur before you even get inside the actual airport. The TSA was created in haste and their solutions are reactive, not proactive

During the late 90's and early 00's my father flew to Israel regularly on business. One of the things he saw was during a refueling stop in Europe, El Al personnel surrounded the aircraft and were armed with automatic weapons, they were watching anyone coming towards the aircraft. Lets see that happen at American airports.

Last edited by magellan315; Jul 18, 2009 at 7:29 pm
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 7:29 pm
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Originally Posted by TSORon
So who is to say that the guy with the pistol in his bag at JFK is not a terrorist?
The job of a TSO at the checkpoint is to make sure that passengers don't bring guns into an airplane. Given the high failure rate for the Red Team tests I would be more concerned about a gun getting past a checkpoint than the amateur training that BDO's receive and how effective they really are.

Last edited by magellan315; Jul 19, 2009 at 12:14 pm
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 7:34 pm
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Originally Posted by magellan315
El Al does it because they have had real hijackings for many years, they also do it because of an assault by terrorists in one of their airports. They even prevented a bombing of an aircraft. The difference is the Israeli's do it right and they have real layers of security in place. A lot more than X-raying luggage and badly trained TSO's and BDO's, several of the layers occur before you even get inside the actual airport. The TSA was created in haste and their solutions are reactive, not proactive

During the late 90's and early 00's my father flew to Israel regularly on business. One of the things he saw was during a refueling stop in Europe, El Al personnel surrounded the aircraft and were armed with automatic weapons, they were watching anyone coming towards the aircraft. Lets see that happen at American airports.
I believe that El Al's methods are more drastic than the average American would approve of. That's just me.
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Old Jul 18, 2009 | 7:41 pm
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Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
I believe that El Al's methods are more drastic than the average American would approve of. That's just me.
So why do you trot out Israeli behavior detection efforts as justification for TSA's similar (but less effective) efforts?
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Old Jul 19, 2009 | 11:47 am
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Originally Posted by halls120
Ronnie, you can't even get the basics correct. Lax gate security was not the cause of the 9/11 hijackings. I know you and the rest of the TSA kool aid drinkers want everyone to believe this, but it is simply NOT the case.
I have not ever said that halls, I have always maintained that it was a failure in policy.

The 9/11 hijackings were planned and executed on the correct belief that once on board, the hijackers could take control of the aircraft with any number of implements available, because prior to 9/11, airline policy in force forbid crews from resisting a hijacking.
I know this, which is why we no longer allow those types of things to happen, or at least we try. So far its worked, but humans are infinitely adaptable and the tactics of terror will always change. The objective is to try and catch the people as well as the weapons.

Your precious BDO program might be designed to find people who could post a danger to other passengers, but it hasn't been a success, has it?
That depends entirely on how you define the term success.

Let's see. No proven science, and all you are catching is evidence of non-aviation safety related criminal activity. And you wonder why courts are starting to rule against TSA?
Even with a stack of documentation a mile high some people are going to have your attitude about it. Its a no win situation for the TSA with you folks. You have closed your mind to the advantages that the program can provide, and to the fact that it is only one more layer in the entire security system that TSA and others are providing. I cant prove to you the validity of the program, you would need to get past your own personal prejudice first before the evidence could be presented. I dont ever see that happening, you enjoy your hatred far to much to ever think about giving it up.



Again, the 9/11 lie. Does everyone in TSA have to sign a loyalty oath swearing they believe in this false statement?
Gonna call BS on you for that one halls. The facts of the costs of the 9/11 attacks are irrefutable. Undeniable. But until you open your mind and get off your own personal prejudice those facts will never be enough for you to admit your error. Sad.
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Old Jul 19, 2009 | 11:56 am
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Originally Posted by magellan315
The job of a TSO at the checkpoint is to make sure that guns that passengers don't bring guns into an airplane. Given the high failure rate for the Red Team tests I would be more concerned about a gun getting past a checkpoint than the amateur training that BDO's receive and how effective they really are.
TSO's around the country catch on the average 40 guns on the checkpoint per week. Most with ammo, some without. And inevitably the passenger says that they forgot it was in the bag. Some get arrested, some dont, many are off duty LEOs traveling for personal reasons.

Rarely do any of these incidents receive media attention. Channel 6 does not have reporters and cameras prepositioned at every checkpoint. But you can read the numbers on the TSA web site if you are interested. And I cant tell you how many knives we find each week. Thousands maybe. And none of these are red team tests. So your reasoning is in error, faulty. But that wont be enough for you and I know it. The proof is in the pudding, but all you can see is a box.
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