Agree, with the caveat that in this context, good resource management demands recognition that the percentage in location of actual "wielders" is drastically lower than, for example, muggers in bad neighborhoods, or people bypassing border crossings in certain rural areas.

Okay, law dawg, I'll take the bait.

Since 9/11� many thousands of muggers and illegal border crossers have been correctly identified and prosecuted. Money spent training, employing and equipping city cops, or Border Patrol, produces measurable and positive ROI. For air hijacking, millions spent have produced a number in the low single digits. Richard Reid, the most dangerous example, was ID'd and controlled by FAs and pax. FAMs, if present, would not have changed initial contact by much. ROI may not be zero, but when damage to the air travel industry, the businesses that use it, and public confidence in government agencies are factored in, it goes steeply negative.

Granted Richard Reid is a gimme example; other events might prove out differently. Except there haven't been any. The tactics used on 9/11 became obsolete that same day. Flight 93 had a tragic outcome but, by its perpetrators' standard, was a failure. Now, cockpit doors are reinforced. Passengers may yet be intimidated by coercion or force, but will nevertheless resist, not passively cooperate. The 2006 liquids plot was indeed a plan, just not a feasible plan. The Glasgow attempt used better-educated actors to achieve a cruder result, and still failed.

Also, the shock value of the initial operation is used up. Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get operatives and weapons onto an aircraft, when a suicide bomber with a device costing under a hundred could be sent into a slow, crowded checkpoint where everyone waits to have their laptops booted and swabbed?

TSA, as constituted, is the Maginot Line of transportation security. They spend an enormous amount of effort and treasure to defend against an event, and techniques, that will never occur again, while ignoring weaknesses that might be usefully addressed. The main difference is that the Maginot Line did not seriously compromise the rights of the citizens whose taxes paid for it.

Sure jimmie.

TSA and other airport security measures have always focused on the "things" that cause security concerns. Guns, bombs, flammables, etc. Finding them and preventing them from getting on an aircraft. But that has been shown to not work so well. The hijackers of 9/11 used that against us and thereby created the situation we have now. They brought non-prohibited items on board and used them to kill 3000+ people.

TSA cannot prevent every possible weapon or item that can be used as a weapon from being brought on board an aircraft, no matter how hard we try or the policies they put in place. Just not possible. But what can be done is prevent those folks that want to do harm to that aircraft and those passengers from ever getting on board. That�s what the BDO�s and some other programs are designed to do. BDO�s can�t tell if a person is a terrorist, but they can tell if a person is exhibiting the signs of someone hiding something significant, and they can use that information to find out if what they are hiding is the intent to harm an aircraft or the passengers.

Its not 100% perfect. People hide all kind of things for all kinds of reasons. Other issues can get in the way of Behavior Detection working properly as well. Medical, emotional, chemical. But it does provide us with another layer of prevention / security prior to someone boarding an aircraft.

Some of the folks out there have complained about the cost of the program. Perspective. How much did the hijackers of 9/11 cost the USA with their act of terrorism? Not just the cost of the buildings and the people, but the cost to the airline industry, the cost of sending the military into Afghanistan (I�m not going to discuss Iraq)? The total cost to us for the actions of those 19 terrorists is in the high trillions, and continues to mount to this day. A few billion for the TSA and its programs/equipment is pocket change in comparison. Perspective.

Perhaps, Ronnie, if TSA actually had some arrests/discoveries of actual terrorists at the airport screening points then the public might agree with you. The near total lack of arrests for actual terrorism at US airports still hovers around zero.

Give us more money and we'll be able to detect terrorists. Excuse me, but your job is to keep the WEI off of aircraft. A disarmed terrorist isn't a threat.

So Ronnie, tell us again how TSA is the point of the spear in keeping air travelers safe from terrorists when TSOs/airline employees routinely get arrested for baggage thefts. What comes out could just as well go in. Please tell us why TSA is incapable of following a Congressional mandate for 100% cargo screening. Could it be that TSA has misspent the funds alocated to it on programs that show a nearly 100% failure rate (i.e. BDO)?

No, Ronnie. This is perspective and top priority:

So in essence you are saying that all this checkpoint search and screening rigmarole is insufficient to discover "something significant". Don't let your boss hear you say that (true though it may be). And spare us the layers BS.

Anyone exhibiting your "signs" is highly unlikely to be hiding something significant, as you put it. Check your track record; hint: drugs, money, false IDs, gel packs and blocks of cheese don't count. A player intent on harm is probably either a psychopath or exhibiting psychopathic tendencies which render BD useless.

Get back to us if (not when) your BDOs find anyone significant.

The problem with the TSA approach is that unless you spend an enormous amount of time and effort training agents in psychology and to an extent psychiatry then the success rate (and well, BDO hasn't had any notable successes against potential terrorist plots as of yet) is going to not much better than it was before the program. I'd suspect that indepth knowledge of this area is too specialised for many (not all, I say, but a vast majority) of on-the-ground TSA agents to acquire in sufficent quality to be effective.

Giving a monkey a spanner does not make him a mechanic. So really, apart from finding the odd block of cheese, bottle of perfume or bag of coke (none of which seems to immediately threathen the safety of an airliner), the current scheme is useless. Which leads me to..

This is a hugely relevant point, which seems to be vastly overlooked. In many cases such people would be next to impossible even for someone experienced to spot, never mind a TSA agent.

And this is apart from the fact (as also pointed out) that physically the same kind of operation is now obselete to all intents and purposes. That loophole has been closed - and they are way too busy looking at the next one to be exploited.

Sorry AM, that dog won�t hunt.

If there has been, would you or I know about it? Not likely. Most terrorists are unknown, who ever heard of Tim McVey before the bomb in Oklahoma? Or Nawaf al-Hazmi before 9/11? Or Eric Robert Rudolph? They were all unknowns to 99.9% of the planet, before they became famous for their actions. So who is to say that the guy with the pistol in his bag at JFK is not a terrorist? Or the one in Atlanta? Or the woman that wanted to get her bottle of �water� through the checkpoint in Kansas? Your reasoning is faulty AM, and I suspect it�s because of 2 things. Lack of information, and prejudice.

The 19 on 9/11 WERE disarmed, at least to the standards of the day. Yet they caused untold amounts of destruction and cost. Again, your reasoning is faulty.

I don�t remember hearing about anyone getting killed because of a TSO or a baggage handler taking something out of their bag AM. But hey, I admit I could have missed that story. Gimmie a link to it and I�ll review the information.

And a giant elephant eating amoeba could crawl out of your nose tomorrow. Its just as likely as you opening your mind enough to let your prejudices concerning TSA escape and allow you a look at the facts. Anything is possible AM, we can �what if� all year long and never get to an answer.
Last I heard TSA was on target with the congressional mandate, 100%. Again I admit I could have missed that story. Gimmie a link to it and I�ll review the information.
Anything is possible AM, we can �what if� all year long and never get to an answer. What a useless game.

Everyone has their opinions red, if they didnt this would not be the great nation that it is. So, get a carrot and a glass of milk and watch a show.

The layers I have to wade through to get to the end of your post? No, sorry, your going to have to omit them yourself. I didn�t put them there.

Nothing is 100% wally. Much as you may want it to be, or think it is, its not. Sorry to bust your balloon, but facts are facts.

Opinions vary. I don�t know enough about the system the BDO�s use to give definitive answers, and it seems you know even less. Not surprising in this forum, but what is surprising is that even when that is pointed out you (not you specifically) will refuse to acknowledge it. Frightening.

BDO�s find things significant with passengers every single day wally. I know you don�t believe that, but then again to see it you would first have to get your head out of the sand.

Are those "things significant" WEI? If anything else is what is defined as "significant," those BDOs are stepping over the boundaries of the TSA permissible search, per US v Fofana.

No, the layer you mentioned in your post. Read it again; try concentrating and you might be able to retain it. Correct, I have no idea what the BDOs are doing. I can only go by their results or lack thereof to make my case.Pot. Kettle. But again correct, pig ignorance is frightening from a self-proclaimed security expert. Sorry Ron, the "we do but it's all secret" ploy simply doesn't cut it here.

In the sand is better than up your...

Ah, hell what's the use. I'm done here. Carry on.

I don't even know why anyne is attempting to answer Ron in this thread he has created. We all remember Ron's recent thread on the subject of Why We Screen. Where he used examples from Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iraq of suicide bombers to show why passengers are screened in the United States, of course. When he realized he had painted himself into a corner he posted this non-answer
Now he's back with a new subject and his proof is a two year old article written by a TSA consultant. Of course the consultant is going to say the BDO program works.

Frankly I think Ron is either close to becoming a troll. Or he is frustrated by the fact that the TSA never selected him to become an official commenter on the TSA blog that he is creating is own version of it here. Either way I've learned to read these types of threads and see the humor in his evidence to support his theory.

Red, you're huntin' the wrong dog if you think Ronnie is going to give this a second glance.

See http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...n#post12053836

We're just helpful folks is all , that and the answers are not intended exclusively for him.For me the amusement factor has now worn off and he has just joined a very select group of posters

McVey? Rudolph? Please tell me how a TSA operative working at an airport could have done anything about either one of those guys. Ronnie, you're grasping at domestic terrorist straws. Come back when TSA stops an actual terrorist operation.

Wasn't talking about the terrorists on 9/11. Talking about post 9/11 and what has TSA did since then to impact terrorism in this country. Sadly, TSA isn't much better than the civilians they replaced.

Ronnie, what goes out of a bag can be replaced with something significantly deadlier. I suspect that it will only be a matter of time before one of your coworkers does a favor for a real terrorist.

Hmm a giant elephant eating amoeba? Not likely. Not anymore likely than some of the scenarios TSA relies on when determining terroristic threats by watching Hollywood created fantasies as a threat analysis tool. Going to have to try harder Ronnie.

Sure they are on target. How many times have the goal posts been moved to keep them on target?

Shoe carnival, war on liquids, BDOS, SPOT, TSA, all what ifs and never did as much as stop a single terrorist.