^

Now only if more people in TSA, especially management, got it like you do.

I have to admit, I have not reviewed these sources as much as I should have. Thank you for the references, I'll remedy the problem.

I do recall reading some stories in, I think, late 2002 that suggested these types of changes/orders had been made to hide military forces that were positioned for action within US borders. I think that was from a pretty fringe source, though.

Well, I walked home past the burning Pentagon, (The nice Arab cab driver couldn't take us very far, as all the major roads were closed.) lived downwind of the Pentagon for the first 3 days of the week long fire, rode the train with armed guards and Pentagon staff every day after, and spent a lot of time with lawyers who were upset that they couldn't give up high five and six figure jobs to go drop bombs in Afghanistan. These sorts of experiences kind of leave an impression on one.

Spotnik:
Again thank you for taking your time om here. Wish the TSA had others like you. I say alot of bad things about TSA & employees but I know I would like you. I just wish you could change things.

^

Actually, I am quite enjoying my time here. I also hope that I will be able to change things.

You're welcome.

Always was suspicious of the logic on that one. If the fluid contents are obviously under 3 oz., and you can't buy volatile or explosive liquids after security to top off the bomb-making bottle, where's the risk? Large and empty containers are OK (except for the odd rogue screener who objects to "drops" left over in them).

No need to reply; I know it's not your stupid rule.

But why should I miss out on the TSA bashing fun?

Seriously, I wish I had better answers to all the liquids/gels rules questions. I don't. Most of the questions brought up here, including the one you said you needed no response to, TheRoadie, are also being asked regularly by some of us TSAers.

I will admit that I have a really bad memory and on every trip have inadvertently been a violator of the liquids rules. I normally forget to remove my baggy from my carry-on and usually have two baggies containing liquids. I usually have a protein shake inside my bag in a place where I think the xray will make it difficult to detect their presence. Same with yogurts and other foodstuffs that I really like(Jello Fat free pudding). Sometimes I get caught and in the spirit of Tom and Jerry (I'm Jerry BTW ) I cheerfully give up the contraband.

My question to you is that on most occasions (about 60% of the time) I have noticed TSO's have detected the liquids in my bag but have not taken any action. Is this because they are too busy, feel it's unimportant or they really have missed the inadvertently packed contraband?

I've been a bit quiet lately and have been reading this thread with interest. There's a lot of questions out there that we'd all like some real answers to .. short of major change from the top down, I don't think it's going to happen.

Anyways, I just want to take a minute and thank you for taking time to post here as a SPOTnik

SDF_Traveler

I don't have access to the x-ray images, so any response I would offer you would be a poorly informed guess. There is also a lot of SSI involved in this issue, which I am specifically forbidden to reveal. You might, however, find the following bits of info from TSA public communications enlightening.

From www.tsa.gov: "...small containers below a certain size and in limited amounts don't pose a real threat..."
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/..._announce.shtm
(quote is about 1/2 way down the page, underneath the picture of the soda can.)

From the TSA blog: "...Why can't multiple people bring on explosives in three-ounce containers and mix them post security?...

...Because there are limits to our ability to detect every thing every time at the checkpoint, we use layers of security....

...The preparation of these bombs is very much more complex than tossing together several bottles-worth of formula and lighting it up. In fact, in recent tests, a National Lab was asked to formulate a test mixture and it took several tries using the best equipment and best scientists for it to even ignite. That was with a bomb prepared in advance in a lab setting. A less skilled person attempting to put it together inside a secure area or a plane is not a good bet. You have to have significant uninterrupted time with space and other requirements that are not easily available in a secured area of an airport. It adds complexity to their preferred model and reduces our risk, having the expert make the bomb and give it to someone else to carry aboard. They are well aware of the Richard Reid factor where he could not even ignite a completed bomb. Simple is truly better for them. Also, bomb-makers are easier for us to identify than so-called clean 'mules.'..."

http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2008/02/more...do-things.html

I hope this isn't too much like doublespeak for you. I am trying to support my responses to potentially sensitive questions with information from public sources to make sure I don't accidentally reveal any SSI. If I find any better public information, I will post it.

You're welcome. I have been quite humbled at how warm a response I've gotten on this forum, especially given my current employment.

In the absence of major change from the top down, I believe that a well informed traveling public is probably the best avenue for improvement in TSA.

It is not my intention to have you reveal sensitive information, so thanks for the links.

The liquids restrictions are a real problem for people with allergies, sensitive skin, dietary restrictions, medical conditions, etc. The results of the tests you refer to above don't necessarily add to the already minimal warm fuzzies I have for your employer.

(bolding mine)

These would all be cases that would fit under the "medically necessary" exemptions.

The TSA website lists specifically allowed items include "Liquids including water, juice, or liquid nutrition or gels for passengers with a disability or medical condition;"
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...eds/index.shtm

If you have any problems bringing items which are required for a medical condition you need to elevate the issue to a supervisor, manager, or as far as it needs to go.

If you cannot get proper resolution, you need to report the matter to the TSA civil rights office, at a minimum.
http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/civilr...travelers.shtm

Also, it is not my job to give anyone "warm fuzzies" for my employer. It is my job to give accurate information within the limits of my knowledge and SSI restrictions. No offense, I just want to make my position clear.

SPOTNIK, allow me to add my welcome to Flyertalk! I see your being here as a good thing, becasue the overall incompetence and absurdity of the TSA has been grinding our gears for years here. The fact that someone who is obviously far more intelligent and well written than the average gum-cracking TSO suggests progress has been made.

As CHOLULA said, please try to understand why some members will be less than cordial. Many of us see the TSA as on organiation that is, first off, a government agency which many see as incompetent and inefficient by default. Add to that the peek-a-boo application of SOP, making up procedures as we go along, a sense of being in law enforcement, some TSA employees who should never have passed a background check and some TSA employees almost total lack of regard to the Bill of Rights and you can surely see why a lot of people are openly hostile. When successful, educated, erudite people are suddenly made beholden to the whims of a workforce that seems to be mainly comprised of folks who washed out of Wendy's management training, are more concerned about their next "break" and how unfair their schedules are than anything else, tensions run really high.

Having said this, I admire your having the grapes to come on here, break cover and engage in the discussion. I think we'll all learn a lot and you will certainly come away from this experience with some insight that your agency might actually use to improve everything. I really hope that the brain trust at the TSA doesn;t hassle yo about being on here. From what I've read so far you;re giving some really good answers.

My first question is this: I generally deal with what I see as mindless prattle with humor / sarcasm. An example would be "Where are you going today, Videopaul?" "Work, same as you." What is your training on how to deal with people who just don't want to participate, or is someone being openly sarcastic an indication of someone who isn't a threat?

--PP

If the motivation were to protect anyone or anything, I might actually be able to tolerate this. What I see more often than not is someone who is on a friggin' power trip and just wants to hassle peope who wouldn't normally sell these turkeys their snot. If the TSA would just weed out these just left of the bell curve types who are there mainly for the government paycheck and benefits, we'd eradicate most of the problem.

OK, I have a question that you may or may not be able to generate some answers to. My father in law is currently out of work. He has a brilliant mind that is very analytical by nature. He spent 8 years in the Air Force, 17 years as a police oficer retiring as a Lieutenant and spent most of the last decade in the technical side of indy car racing. That industry took a serious hit when tobacco sponsorship was outlawed and he was eventually replaced by DeVry Institute hotshots with their newly minted certificates and only demanding 25k a year to do what he did are a hell of a lot more. He could pass a Yankee White security clearance vetting without raising an eyebrow.

He applied to the TSA, figuring that that much military and LEO experience would surely be useful in such an organization. He got a rejectoin letter teling him that his qualifications were not in line with what the TSA required. He as dumbfounded and so was I, although I was not surprised a it because it's my opinion that the TSA is NOT looking for LEOs and ex-military, but for below-average people who can perform repetitive tasks without applying common sense. My question to you is this: Why in the world would an organization who supposedly is trying to protect America from attack via air transportation turn down someone with that kind of resume?

--PP

there is one problem however with the escalation as it all depends on what kind of a power trip the screener and subsequent supervisor might take all the way up to "d-y-w-t-f-t".

very few pax know about "their rights" let alone the links that you provided (which btw, i carry hard copies with me [and have for well over 3 years] when i fly due my orthopedic shoes and orthotics)

the key is not only education on the part of the pax but also on the part of the tsa as they need to be proactive and not reactive. tsa "corporate" needs to get the word out the way they did on the kippie freedom baggies and tsa "front line" (not all but many) needs to be properly trained in these areas as well