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FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/index.php)
-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Requirement for speaking your name? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1398391-requirement-speaking-your-name.html)

T-the-B Oct 23, 2012 2:41 pm
Originally Posted by cottonmather0 (Post 19551932)
. . .

It was the clerk who took the job in the first place. His choice. So he can pay the consequences of the policies he's been hired to enforce.
In my opinion there are two types of TSA screeners: those who took the job primarily because they get to stick their hands down others' pants and those who just consider that aspect an added bonus. They deserve all the derision I can heap on them and then some.

tanja Oct 23, 2012 2:46 pm
How do TSA handle foreign names and the way are said?

My name is swedish and I say it in swedish.

I have been told several times in USA. What? Please do it in english.

Wally Bird Oct 23, 2012 3:04 pm
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 19549976)
TSA can't just make up any rules they like without changes to the CFR.
Somewhere in the text is a 'blank cheque' statement to the effect of
...any additional necessary procedures....
Very little of what the TSA does is specifically authorized by the law(s); there's nothing about SPOT interrogations, baning ALL liquids, nor a perp frisk. So yes, the TSA can and does make up rules knowing that few if any passengers are going to mount a court challenge. And even if that should happen they can always play the National Security card; 9 out of 10 judges will let them.

UshuaiaHammerfest Oct 23, 2012 3:16 pm
Originally Posted by cestmoi123 (Post 19550648)
1. Jewish Israeli nationals are trusted more.
2. Highly unlikely that the presumed trust level for an American Jew and (for example) an American Catholic is identical.

Overall, it's certainly the case that, given the same nationality, TLV security has higher trust for Jewish people. Not at all saying that this isn't an appropriate threat model for them to use, but also no reason to pretend that it's not true.
The cultural or ethnic distinction of Jewish person, absolutely yes. The religious distinction is irrelevant. Ethnically Jewish but non-religious Israeli nationals are just as trusted as ethnically Jewish extremely devout followers of Judaism.

If someone were to convert to Judaism tomorrow and start speaking perfect Hebrew to the interviewer, they still aren't going to get any more of a free pass than if they were a Christian or Buddhist. One's ethnicity is what's relevant to Israeli security.

GUWonder Oct 23, 2012 4:02 pm
Religion is a "'cultural or ethnic' distinction". :rolleyes:

Religion is a vehicle of culture in the words of some of the most prominent religious studies scholars alive today. ;)

Originally Posted by UshuaiaHammerfest (Post 19552159)

If someone were to convert to Judaism tomorrow and start speaking perfect Hebrew to the interviewer, they still aren't going to get any more of a free pass than if they were a Christian or Buddhist.
The above section of the quoted post is nothing but pretending while the following is anything but that.

Are you aware that there are some identical twins who visit TLV separately for the same purpose as adults but where one is a convert to Judaism while the other is not? They tend to have different experiences because of religious affiliation.

The notion of "micro expressions" or other such "behavior" reliably exposing terrorists is hokey "science". If it worked so reliably, Israel wouldn't have been hit so many times by people inside Israel's borders and/or from the Territories it has locked up.

Bigotry works for some but not for all. Hard for some advocates of racist profiling and/or some other forms of tribalistic bigotry to publicly acknowledge what they really support is bigotry at airports as much as, or more than, is already the matter.

The US isn't Israel, so the idea of doing the Israeli way in the US is ridiculous on its face.

Pesky Monkey Oct 23, 2012 7:41 pm
Originally Posted by fiddlestickies (Post 19545159)
Have any of you been through Israeli security? I've been asked far more intrusive questions, like what synagogue I go to, to list the names of my relatives in Israel, and what the translation of my girlfriend's last name is! They obviously don't care about the answer, but they want to see if I get flustered or nervous about all the questions. I imagine it's a similar idea with this question. I'm all for calling TSA security theater, but why anyone thinks it's a good idea to be intentionally extremely obnoxious to people who are just doing their jobs is beyond me. 95% of TSA personnel I have ever interacted with are professional and show a basic level of courtesy. Maybe it's because I don't go out of my way to antagonize them and make their jobs more difficult??? :rolleyes:
We're not in Israel. We have a bill of rights which supposedly hundreds of thousands of Americans have died to protect.

UshuaiaHammerfest Oct 23, 2012 7:46 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
Religion is a "'cultural or ethnic' distinction". :rolleyes:
And by that, you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the difference between "follower of Judaism" and "Jewish." :rolleyes:

One can be Jewish without being a follower of Judaism. One can be a follower of Judaism without being ethnically Jewish. Really, look it up. Or just ask someone.

You don't need to weigh in on every single issue, so please stop arguing nuances you simply don't understand. You've made it clear this is not a topic you understand, so please stop suggesting you do.


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
Religion is a vehicle of culture in the words of some of the most prominent religious studies scholars alive today. ;)
Again, you don't understand the Jewish faith, Israel, or what "ethnically Jewish" means, so please stop arguing that you do.

Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
The above section of the quoted post is nothing but pretending while the following is anything but that.
The above section of the quoted post is nothing but nonsense presented in a way as to sound intelligently thought out, while it is anything but that.

Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
Are you aware that there are some identical twins who visit TLV separately for the same purpose as adults but where one is a convert to Judaism while the other is not? They tend to have different experiences because of religious affiliation.
Correlation does not equal causation. I'd also be willing to bet money you cannot cite a source, and further willing to bet that even if you did find a source, it would not definitively determine "religion" as the distinction which caused the differing treatment.

Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
The notion of "micro expressions" or other such "behavior" reliably exposing terrorists is hokey "science". If it worked so reliably, Israel wouldn't have been hit so many times by people inside Israel's borders and/or from the Territories it has locked up.
Don't misquote me. I never said or implied that micro expressions "reliably exposed terrorists." As I specifically stated, reactions and micro expressions can help detect when someone is hiding something. Play poker against professionals some time. You'll see what I mean.

Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 19552454)
Bigotry works for some but not for all. Hard for some advocates of racist profiling and/or some other forms of tribalistic bigotry to publicly acknowledge what they really support is bigotry at airports as much as, or more than, is already the matter.

The US isn't Israel, so the idea of doing the Israeli way in the US is ridiculous on its face.
You will not find a SINGLE post of mine where I suggested the US should work like Israel (and in fact I've said quite the opposite before), so do not even try to imply otherwise. I called you on your lack of knowledge of Israeli security procedures, plain and simple. It's the same lack of knowledge you've continued to demonstrate throughout the thread.

Bottom line, I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this. The thread is not about Israel or security there, and this side discussion has gone on long enough. You made a statement, you were wrong, I'm sure you'll have no problem continuing to say "No I'm not, No I'm not, No I'm not," until you're blue in the face, so have at it if you wish. I've made my point. Feel free to learn from it if you wish, or ignore it otherwise.

Cheers.

GUWonder Oct 23, 2012 10:19 pm
Originally Posted by UshuaiaHammerfest (Post 19553486)
And by that, you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the difference between "follower of Judaism" and "Jewish." :rolleyes:

One can be Jewish without being a follower of Judaism. One can be a follower of Judaism without being ethnically Jewish. Really, look it up. Or just ask someone.

You don't need to weigh in on every single issue, so please stop arguing nuances you simply don't understand. You've made it clear this is not a topic you understand, so please stop suggesting you do.




Again, you don't understand the Jewish faith, Israel, or what "ethnically Jewish" means, so please stop arguing that you do.



The above section of the quoted post is nothing but nonsense presented in a way as to sound intelligently thought out, while it is anything but that.



Correlation does not equal causation. I'd also be willing to bet money you cannot cite a source, and further willing to bet that even if you did find a source, it would not definitively determine "religion" as the distinction which caused the differing treatment.



Don't misquote me. I never said or implied that micro expressions "reliably exposed terrorists." As I specifically stated, reactions and micro expressions can help detect when someone is hiding something. Play poker against professionals some time. You'll see what I mean.

You will not find a SINGLE post of mine where I suggested the US should work like Israel (and in fact I've said quite the opposite before), so do not even try to imply otherwise. I called you on your lack of knowledge of Israeli security procedures, plain and simple. It's the same lack of knowledge you've continued to demonstrate throughout the thread.

Bottom line, I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this. The thread is not about Israel or security there, and this side discussion has gone on long enough. You made a statement, you were wrong, I'm sure you'll have no problem continuing to say "No I'm not, No I'm not, No I'm not," until you're blue in the face, so have at it if you wish. I've made my point. Feel free to learn from it if you wish, or ignore it otherwise.

Cheers.
You clearly have no clue about my background, but who cares.

There is nothing substantive for me or any other informed person to learn from the above post, except to learn about you; yet as you are not the subject of this topic -- nor am I -- you can continue to go blue over the matter as jon you will.

This name game is stupid "security", just like the hokey "science" some try to use to justify interrogations of passengers at airports where the TSA operates, goes or from where the TSA supposedly "learns".

cottonmather0 Oct 24, 2012 4:08 am
Originally Posted by T-the-B (Post 19551969)
In my opinion there are two types of TSA screeners: those who took the job primarily because they get to stick their hands down others' pants and those who just consider that aspect an added bonus. They deserve all the derision I can heap on them and then some.
I've found that generally, those in your second group REALLY like the plastic badge and authoritah. You don't get to yell at people at Walmart and take out all your class envy life regret issues on strangers and still keep your job.

KDS Oct 24, 2012 4:30 am
Originally Posted by fiddlestickies (Post 19549931)
I completely agree with your reasoning, and thanks for answering seriously. My only point of argument would be that I think your anger is mis-directed at the agents themselves. I don't think the agent is enjoying sticking his hands down your pants any more than you are :D.
And yet, he/she does it every day to thousands of passengers. "Following orders" is not an excuse for what would be illegal behavior if you or I did it, and definitely is not an excuse for a government-condoned worker. Our rights mean nothing if we won't defend them. Just look at history if you want to see what happens when a constitution becomes "just words on a parchment". I will defend my country (not the government workers) and my fellow citizens always.

GUWonder Oct 26, 2012 3:36 pm
Originally Posted by tanja (Post 19551997)
How do TSA handle foreign names and the way are said?

My name is swedish and I say it in swedish.

I have been told several times in USA. What? Please do it in english.
They handle it inconsistently, as the TSA is so reliable at handling things. [If anything about the TSA is reliable it is that you can rely upon the TSA being inconsistent at least sometimes.]

Some of the worst TSA agents play the name call-out (and sometimes even sex call-out games) in a way designed to try to harass or insult passengers. Sometimes they aren't trying to do that but are demonstrating how a little knowledge can be a little too little knowledge -- as in they have heard a name spelled one way pronounced one way and assume that spelling is always pronounced in just that one way.

Penntraveler2001 Oct 26, 2012 3:58 pm
So, I think this is an interesting thread as a good friend of mine and frequent traveler often have this conversation. The agents at SFO ask for your name. It was explained to me that the agents are required to ask for the passenger's name as this is a requirement of the independent security company that manages the SFO gates (I only fly United out of SFO, so I don't know if the other terminals do the same). I have a number of issues with this.

1) Full agreement with most on this post that saying your name out loud when a form of identification is produced that clearly identifies you as the traveler does not in any way make the checkpoint more secure.

2) Major concern that there is no consistency across all airports with the way that the TSA handles security checkpoints. All checkpoints should be handled exactly the same to ensure proper procedures are followed and that the checkpoint is in fact secure. The experience at SFO should be exactly the same at MIA, and DFW and .......list goes on. Why are independent security companies allowed to create their own rules.

I love this response and will use it: "out of an abundance of caution and for security reasons, I don't say my name in public while traveling". Looking forward to see what the TSA has to say next time I fly.

stifle Oct 26, 2012 4:04 pm
Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 19548777)
I think you are incredibly fortunate to have experienced such a high percentage of "professional" TSA personnel.

There is no real justification for the imposition of TSA on the flying public and airline industry. When you start from that basic fact, it's hard to look at TSA in anything other than a negative light.
He said security personnel, not TSA. I also find around 95% of airport security personnel I encounter to be professional and reasonable, which may have something to do with living in Europe.

GUWonder Oct 26, 2012 5:37 pm
Originally Posted by stifle (Post 19572127)
He said security personnel, not TSA. I also find around 95% of airport security personnel I encounter to be professional and reasonable, which may have something to do with living in Europe.
Same goes for most countries that don't have the TSA's hokey "security" questioning of passengers about their names and who knows what else.

Even some in the TSA recognize the ridiculous nature of the schtick that the TSA has going on about names and other questioning of passengers that the TSA has in place.

Vidiot Oct 26, 2012 8:10 pm
Originally Posted by cynicAAl (Post 19551010)
I can see no benefit to this question, so I don't play along. I also don't play along with Costco's receipt check charade.
Not to derail from an already-derailed thread, but as far as I know the big-box warehouse-club-type stores include compliance with receipt checks as part of their membership agreements. (I know my Costco membership agreement includes this, but I haven't checked terms for BJ's, Sam's, etc.)

I certainly don't comply with receipt checks in any other store (Best Buy people, especially, get really agitated and have come close to threatening or assaulting me) but I do play along at Costco since I've already agreed to.


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