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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Requirement for speaking your name? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1398391-requirement-speaking-your-name.html)

Caradoc Jun 27, 2012 7:55 am


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 18827853)
Even if there is no legal requirement to "show ID", there is a procedural requirement to "identify yourself by furnishing deeply personal and private information" if you want to be admitted to the sterile part of the airport.

Unless, of course, you happen to be an illegal alien (foreign national sans visa) working for the TSA as an employee under a stolen identity.

GaryD Jun 27, 2012 8:15 am


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 18827853)
What is the appropriate answer when it is not phrased as a question, but an order, "Say your first and last name." ala SFO?

"Am I required to?"

Then,

"Where is that written down?"

After that, your path may vary. But, a "question" is not required to invoke your right not to incriminate yourself. US Constitution, Amendment V:

"[No person] shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, ..."

Wally Bird Jun 27, 2012 12:14 pm


Originally Posted by GaryD (Post 18829184)
"[No person] shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, ..."

TSA (and Covenant) is not governed by criminal law.

RichardKenner Jun 27, 2012 1:10 pm


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 18827853)
That used to be true, but now my understanding is that the TSA procedure requires you to be cooperative and provide detailed personal information, including financial information that can be verified in a database, if you do not have an ID.

My understanding is that the information that you provide is your name and address. They then look you up in a database and ask you to confirm information that's in that database, which may be either financial or older addresses. But they already have that information: you're just confirming it.

In other words, it's like a police stop: in some states you have to identify yourself, but you never have to show ID.

MavSeven Jun 27, 2012 1:57 pm


Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 18831023)
In other words, it's like a police stop: in some states you have to identify yourself, but you never have to show ID.

2 things wrong with that statement:

1) TSA are not police officers.

2) Even if they were, they would have to have reasonable suspicion that you committed, or are about to commit, a crime in order to stop you or compel you to identify yourself.

Caradoc Jun 27, 2012 2:20 pm


Originally Posted by MavSeven (Post 18831327)
2 things wrong with that statement:

1) TSA are not police officers.

2) Even if they were, they would have to have reasonable suspicion that you committed, or are about to commit, a crime in order to stop you or compel you to identify yourself.

Not to mention the limitations on the so-called "Terry" search.

GaryD Jun 27, 2012 3:23 pm


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 18830708)
TSA (and Covenant) is not governed by criminal law.

The real question is, whether the question (or demand) is or could be part of a "criminal case."

If they might have you arrested right then and there for using a name not your own, then yes, I would say.

If it's just exclusion from the airport terminal, I suppose not.

My question remains: Has anyone ever been excluded from an airport terminal just for refusing to state his or her name?

It appears not. They must know they can't do that.

RichardKenner Jun 27, 2012 5:18 pm


Originally Posted by MavSeven (Post 18831327)
2 things wrong with that statement:

1) TSA are not police officers.

2) Even if they were, they would have to have reasonable suspicion that you committed, or are about to commit, a crime in order to stop you or compel you to identify yourself.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't comparing TSA procedures to a police stop, just saying that the difference between "showing ID" and "identifying oneself" is the same under both circumstances.

RichardKenner Jun 27, 2012 5:20 pm


Originally Posted by GaryD (Post 18831814)
The real question is, whether the question (or demand) is or could be part of a "criminal case."

If they might have you arrested right then and there for using a name not your own, then yes, I would say.

Let's suppose you were presenting fraudulent ID, under a name not your own. Then, if you gave a truthful answer to the question being asked, you would be incriminating yourself in a crime (presenting fraudulent ID). Therefore, it's covered by the self-incrimination privilege (a.k.a, the Fifth Amendment).

GaryD Jun 27, 2012 7:32 pm


Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 18832481)
Let's suppose you were presenting fraudulent ID, under a name not your own. Then, if you gave a truthful answer to the question being asked, you would be incriminating yourself in a crime (presenting fraudulent ID). Therefore, it's covered by the self-incrimination privilege (a.k.a, the Fifth Amendment).

This would be true if an LEO were present.

It could then be considered a "criminal case," because the LEO is empowered to arrest me and charge me with a crime, on evidence including a voluntary statement of mine.

Is it still true if the question asker has no authority to arrest me, but can keep me out of the secured area even though I am not even accused of a crime?

By the way, on what basis can the TSA keep me out of the secured area, if I have ID and boarding pass?

WillCAD Jun 27, 2012 7:49 pm


Originally Posted by GaryD (Post 18833140)
This would be true if an LEO were present.

It could then be considered a "criminal case," because the LEO is empowered to arrest me and charge me with a crime, on evidence including a voluntary statement of mine.

Is it still true if the question asker has no authority to arrest me, but can keep me out of the secured area even though I am not even accused of a crime?

By the way, on what basis can the TSA keep me out of the secured area, if I have ID and boarding pass?

Any basis they choose. And the justification for it would, of course, be some SOP that's SSI.

cynicAAl Jun 27, 2012 8:01 pm


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 18827853)
What is the appropriate answer when it is not phrased as a question, but an order, "Say your first and last name." ala SFO?

Answer: I'd be happy to do so just as soon as you can explain to me how that affects aviation safety/security. You have 2 documents in your hand that clearly identify me. If that's not enough to convince you, I suggest you call a supervisor to assist you. I'm not interested in playing NameGame with you today.

Then we have a brief stare-down (which I always win). Then I continue with security and catch my flight. Simple, really.

GaryD Jun 27, 2012 8:08 pm


Originally Posted by WillCAD (Post 18833219)
Any basis they choose. And the justification for it would, of course, be some SOP that's SSI.

What about the other part of the Fifth Amendment:

"No person shall be ... deprived of ... liberty ... without due process of law; ..."

Being barred for refusing to be groped or scanned is one thing, and that would apparently be upheld by the courts. But, even the no-fly list is being litigated.

I would want to know if the courts would go along with "any basis they choose." But for some reason, TSA seem to have stopped asking pax to state their name. At LGA on Monday, just check and squiggle.

RichardKenner Jun 28, 2012 4:31 am


Originally Posted by GaryD (Post 18833140)
This would be true if an LEO were present.

It could then be considered a "criminal case," because the LEO is empowered to arrest me and charge me with a crime, on evidence including a voluntary statement of mine.

Is it still true if the question asker has no authority to arrest me

Yes. Because that person is competant to testify as to what you said (it's an exception to the hearsay rule since it's a "statement against interest") and is acting of behalf of the government.


By the way, on what basis can the TSA keep me out of the secured area, if I have ID and boarding pass?
Failure to complete screening.

cottonmather0 Jun 28, 2012 4:43 am


Originally Posted by GaryD (Post 18833140)
By the way, on what basis can the TSA keep me out of the secured area, if I have ID and boarding pass?

Refer back to my original post in this thread - I was using my passport card and a matching boarding pass that they had scanned and found to be authentic, but they wouldn't let me pass because they claimed the name I said didn't "match" (quotes because how would anyone know that but me?).

Granted, I was purposely trying to be provocative and said a different name than was on either document, but when I pointed out that I had a valid ID and boarding pass, they said that they couldn't let me enter the checkpoint. When I asked to call the LEO, he deferred and said that their rules controlled the checkpoint... And I left the line before it escalated beyond that and before the LEO could threaten me with trespassing, which I was pretty sure was going to be the next step.

I am going to Houston again in a couple of weeks and am going to try again, this time without saying my name at all, without giving them the "fake name" excuse, and will hope this time that the boarding pass and ID are sufficient.


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