TSORon

Only if you are willing to dehumanize every TSO everywhere because of your inability to see beyond the uniform and the job. There is a person in that uniform, with their own families, their own lives, and they are there to earn a paycheck just like every other working American in the country. IOW, you are doing to the TSO’s exactly what you think the TSA is doing to you. Does not seem like a very rational response now, does it.

“No ambiguity in them”. Please, provide us with a document that has no ambiguity in it. Just one, and I will politely bow out of this discussion. There is no such thing as a document that totally has no unambiguity in it.

We don’t have calibrated eyes, we guess right along with everyone else. And an x-ray cannot tell the difference in size between them, there is no scale on the side of the screen giving us a representation of how large something is.

And if WISHES WERE FISHES. Sure would be nice to have every McDonalds serve every sandwich the same way every single time, no exceptions, and the employee that gets it wrong is fired right then. But that would be an unrealistic expectation wouldn’t it. Human nature enters everything we do, everything we read, and there is no such thing as a “crystal-clear” document.

I don’t believe I presented anything as a fact instead of an opinion. I’ll have to look again. I make a pretty good effort at differentiating the two.

Every document, even those of a non-technical nature, have ambiguity in them. No exceptions. There is always room for interpretation and misinterpretation. There IS written into the SOP room for judgment calls by the TSO’s. It acknowledges that humans can occasionally draw complicated conclusions from limited direct evidence (we call them “hunches”). Each person everywhere does this, some to a lesser degree than others.

So far you have not given me any reason to believe that you are dishonest. Misguided and uninformed at times, but honest. I cannot say that for some of the others who post here.

No one forces anyone to “deal” with the TSA (escorted prisoners excepted). Everyone makes that choice for themselves. And please do not fall into the trap of believing that it is not a decision, it most certainly is. It may not be one they like, it may not be one they enjoy, but each and every passenger does make that decision for themselves. There are always alternative choices available, no exceptions. Some people just have a bit of trouble relating choices with consequences.

As for the “barker”, well you might give them just a tad bit of human compassion. They have been up for more than an hour, driven into work, gotten their morning briefings, maybe have gotten some breakfast and coffee, and are usually on the job before 4am. I did that for a while, and I can remember being a bit grumpy a few times, and I am generally a very happy person (drives the co-workers nuts sometimes). I like mornings, am a morning person.

In any case I will be traveling in the next 2 months via air to one of the places that has been mentioned here as having “barking” TSO’s. When I get back I’ll post what my experience was like. The main difference between the average traveler and I is that I know the “what” and “why” that most travelers don’t. I get the honor of traveling through several different airports on the way there and back, so I should get a pretty fair cross-section of what my fellow TSO’s at other airports are doing. Should be interesting.

chollie

Mass hallucination is a strange phenomenon indeed.

I can only recall one TSO (one of the 'good' ones who posts here from time to time) who admitted that ...(shock!)...not all airports are alike (he works at a very small one) and ...(more shock!)...yes, not all pax lie, Kippie didn't lie, TSOs at many checkpoints do bark.

Interestingly, this TSO spent some time at a large airport for training, IIRC (he posted about it here). He actually addressed the issue of barking with whoever was running the checkpoint - tried to personally demonstrate to a somewhat skeptical LTSO (?) that an 'inside voice' and conversational tone used to address individual pax worked much more successfully, improved the overall checkpoint atmosphere for both pax and TSOs.

I've often wondered if he's revisited that checkpoint since to see if his suggested (demonstrated) alternate approach was maintained.

It is lazier to stand focused on infinity while you bark at all and sundry all day long. It is much more challenging, I'm sure, to put all that extensive TSA training and experience to work using an inside voice, eye contact, and TSO experience to judge which pax are most likely inexperienced and possibly not familiar with all the constantly changing 'rules'.

It's always interesting when a TSO posts 'knowledgeably' about how things work at airports - it's particularly interesting when a TSO posts 'knowledgeably' when he/she works at a small airport and rarely, if ever, travels. The particular TSO whose posts I am referring to was honest enough to not fall into the trap of assuming that all airports operated like his small (and apparently friendly) airport and that any reports or videos to the contrary were vicious misguided lies and assaults on TSA.

Caradoc

Zero accountability.

This can be seen any time there's an issue with the TSA and "the video was fuzzy," or "the cameras weren't working," or a statement is issued that the TSA has investigated and "...our initial review concluded that the circumstances as described in some reports are inconsistent with what we believe transpired.”

ND Sol

Are any of those airports ones in which you have to leave airside to make a connection? Otherwise, what are your plans for getting "a pretty fair cross-section of what my fellow TSO’s at other airports are doing"?


Once again, Ron, any comments on this other thread?

nachtnebel

I don't earn my paycheck destroying the civil liberties of my fellow citizens, feeling over their private parts without any cause whatsoever and causing humiliations--all despicable actions--and to boot spitting on the US Constitution that forbids the actions required to receive that paycheck. The last I've heard, none of you folks were forced into that occupation, you chose it. And you continue to choose doing it.

So yes, zero respect is actually a higher mark than what is deserved here. Btw, we don't "think" that the TSA clerks are doing what they do. We can feel their hands roaming where they shouldn't be and we can see it. It is no less disgusting now than when it started in October 2010.

TSA clerks infest the airports, train stations, and subways with their nonsense and present a threat to us personally in whatever venue they show up.

add: this is referring to what their actions merit, not implying absolute hatred of the clerks. By their uncivil acts they have removed themselves from full civic friendship. You can't be feeling our sex organs when we've done nothing to deserve it, and when feeling them YOU KNOW how much we hate it, you KNOW the duress, and then expect us to regard you as something other than what you are in your job--a threat, as someone who has harmed us and our family. "To see beyond" the hand up the crotch. As if. Such an expectation is not rational.

T-the-B

While I agree with the literal truth that "(t)here is no such thing as a document that totally has no unambiguity in it," (emphasis mine) I think that it it possible to have documents that are very clear, with ambiguity reduced almost to the vanishing point. Check out the FAR for an example of a government-produced, aviation related document that is very clear on what the rules are for operating aircraft in the nation's airspace.

It would be ridiculous for a pilot to say, "The visibility requirements for VFR in Class B,C or D airspace are poorly defined," or "It's unclear what the minimum altitude over a city is." Those things are spelled out quite clearly and unambiguously. And failure to comply with the requirements can cause a pilot to lose his privileges.

If the FAR can be laid out in a clear, unambiguous fashion I would think that things such as the list of acceptable ID at a TSA checkpoint could also be clearly and unambiguously stated. And, in fact, the acceptable ID list is clear and unambiguous. And yet, we see almost weekly posting about a TDC who refused a Nexis card.

If there is an issue with an ambiguously worded SOP, then there is a problem with TSA management. They have the responsibility to produce clear procedure manuals. If there is an issue with TSOs not being able to comprehend the SOP there is a problem with workforce. I suspect both problems are afoot at TSA.

4nsicdoc

Regular food container plastics like polypropolene and polyethelene have good compatability with H2O2 even at a 100% concentration.but don't try it with an acetal plastics like polyoxymethylene.

chollie

Actually, when (not 'if') there is an ambiguously worded SOP, it is clearly by intent. TSA management wants ambiguity (and secrecy).

If you do penetrate TSA's SSI veil of secrecy, you will (by design) find ambiguously-worded, open to interpretation regs and SOP that essentially allow anything and everything a TSO wants to do.

TSA does not want clear, concise procedure manuals.

Question for those who travel abroad: how often do you see 'Kettles' at foreign checkpoints? How are they handled? Do you see and hear the proliferation of signs, recordings, barkings (sounds like the monkey house at the zoo at feeding time) that proliferate at US checkpoints (all paid for by taxpayer dollars)? Do you suppose there are foreign equivalents of out-of-date, ambiguous, worthless security websites? Do you see hordes of security folks standing around with no apparent purpose (non-US airports usually seem to have less than half the folks the US does at any given checkpoint, yet they seem to move far more efficiently). Do you suppose foreign security SOP's are as opaque as TSA's?

RadioGirl

Oooh, ooh! I'll play. In the last three years, I've been through SYD, CBR, MEL, PER, ADL, AUH, ATH, GVA, SIN, HKG, ZRH, FCO, PMO, NRT, AMS, AKL and PKE. Not as many as some here, but it's a reasonable assortment on several continents. So let's go:
All the time. From the elderly woman in a dirndl at ZRH who couldn't understand how a bottle of water could be forbidden, to families with kids on their first trip, to the guy who tried to take his full-size suitcase through the checkpoint at SYD domestic, to the two middle-aged women at SYD int'l who were embarrassed when security found their stash of rum and scotch.
Politely. Quietly. Without exception.
No. Most int'l checkpoints have either a sign or a video screen with a slideshow, with the basic information of: outerwear off, laptops and freedom baggies out (at airports where this is required), keys/coins/cellphones out of pockets.
I have yet to see one. Nor have I heard a security guard at any of these airports chastise passengers for not reading the website, much less claim that the website was out of date.
No.
Based on all of the above, apparently not. And while I hear people in Australia and Europe mention their problems with getting through US airports, I never hear them complain about Australian, European or Asian airports.

But I think we all knew that.

dimramon

Went through security in the US yesterday, and my meds were flagged. The vapor test on one of the items I had with me was carried out in front of a 2-3 foot blowing fan

On a side note, I went through security in Europe this morning. I showed the security guy my items, he said no problem, and that was the end of that. I was thanked, smiled at and he wished me a good flight.

chollie

I was prescribed nitro pills a couple years ago. I am supposed to have them on me at all times - it really is a potentially life-or-death matter.

Unfortunately, I travel by air and I can't take the pills with me because I don't want to risk problems at the checkpoint.

TSORon

As I have said before, they don’t detect “prohibited items” and have never been designed to do so. You are making several false assumptions.

You have it backwards. TSA first, DHS second. I think there is a timeline about that somewhere on the TSA website.

Honestly I don’t know. I have never been through any of the airports on my schedule before, so it will be a new and interesting experience.

Just like you, I will be watching. Since I know what the rules are and how they should be applied I will be looking for many things, including TSO’s ignoring or violating those rules. I’ll let you know what I “see”.

It would be helpful if you knew what those civil liberties are first. Then I might put some credence to your opinions.
Opinions vary.

Again I say that it would be helpful if you knew what those civil liberties are first. Without that knowledge, something which seems to glaringly obvious to anyone who actually has knowledge on the subject, your opinion is based upon ignorance. Don’t get me wrong, you are more than welcome to whatever opinion you choose to have, but any opinion based on ignorance is far more likely to be wrong than right.

Well, I’m glad that we can agree on that at least.

I’m not a pilot, so I don’t believe it would be appropriate for me to venture an opinion on the ambiguity of your linked document. What I can say is that there are pilots out there that intentionally or unintentionally violate it all the time. TSA gets the reports every day, right along with many other government agencies.

One of the major problems I have expressed here and elsewhere that I have with the TSA is its decision to hire its upper level management almost exclusively from the ranks of the retired military. Dont get me wrong, I am ex-military, but putting that “taste” of the military way of doing things in a civilian environment was a significant mistake IMO. OTOH, they needed to get all levels in place in a hurry(Congressional mandate) and they had a ready pool of experienced managers and administrators in the retired and ex-military members. Why not use that experience? Rock, meet hard spot. They did what they had to do.

Over the last 5 years or so there has been a slow exodus of senior management, retiring, and they seem to be putting emphasis on hiring civilian managers and administrators to replace them. Yet there still remains that “military taste” to TSA policies which civilians will find unacceptable. I don’t know if it will ever go away, that military mentality, but I see it having less and less effect every day on our daily operations and the policies that continue to evolve.

IrishDoesntFlyNow

I think, Ron, that the "military way of doing things" hasn't managed to find its way to line personnel. Which is a contradiction in itself. In a military hierarchy, an order (policy/procedure/change) finds its way down the ranks to the lowliest buck private accurately and tout de suite. Command staff at each level of the hierarchy is absolutely responsible for the actions of the levels below them. High-level careers are made or broken by the actions of the platoon or squad. I see very little (if any) of this in the functioning of the TSA.

I've worked with the military on-and-off for nearly 30 years. It's my experience that they're consistently very by-the-book, very disciplined, very respectful and excruciatingly polite. I can't say that I consistently see those qualities in the general day-to-day operation of checkpoints. If, for example, a buck private is responsible to recognize 500 (hyperbole, I know) forms of ID, that buck private knows those IDs before (s)he is posted. Do mistakes happen? As they do with TSA, yes. Are they widespread and repeated as we see routinely reported here? Unlike TSA, absolutely no. Do they invariably apply their orders as given? As with TSA, of course not; the military is made up of human beings. Is there widespread failure to know and apply orders? Unlike TSA, absolutely not.

Frankly, Ron, if your argument is that TSA was originally organized to a para-military model, then the entire command staff gets an epic fail. Had it been done properly, it would (IMHO) have been far better than what we have today. Personally, I'd be happy to see a little more effective military-type management and a little more effective discipline at the line level. I'd be ecstatic to deal with polite, respectful and disciplined troops who know and understand their orders and apply them consistently.


~~ Irish

T-the-B

I agree 100%. To make the claim that the TSA has a "military taste" is an egregious slander on the military.

ND Sol

If you give us the name of the airports and your connections, we can help you out on whether you will have to leave airside to make your connection. Otherwise, are you planning on walking back out to the checkpoints to observe what is happening just from the sterile side? Even that would be only half of the story.

I note that you conveniently left out this part of my post when quoting: "Once again, Ron, any comments on this other thread?"