testing eye drops
#91
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,728
And that seems to be the root of many problems. The TSA can't even train its own personnel not to shout at people for following the directions they've been already been given.
#92
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5
I'd almost agree with you here, almost, Ron, except that there's a fundamental flaw in your logic, and it occurs when you assume that the directions at an airport checkpoint, which most people encounter a handful of times a year, are as simple as the directions for using dish soap, which most people encounter every 48 hours or so.
here's some objective data to back you up...
http://www.elliott.org/blog/poll-air...out-tsa-rules/
#93
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,444
OK, that was definately 6th grade! No. Being in vapor form means they fly around. There is plenty of O2 floating around in the air, and the difference in mass between O2 and H2O2 is very small. But the reality is that the amount of H2O2 in gas form will be very small at any given time, due to the low ability of this molecule to vaporize.
Last edited by BubbaLoop; Jul 12, 2012 at 3:47 pm
#94
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
That said, most American families run their dishwasher ever couple of days (I'd guess). That's, give or take, 182 exposures to dish soap a year. The average American family will all jump on an airplane once or twice a year, at most, as a leisure traveler. Now, let's look at the instructions that the leisure travelers are expected by the TSA to memorize and follow (my commentary based on experience in parentheses):
1. Pack liquids, gels and aerosols into a one-quart, clear, resealable plastic baggie.
2. Any containers over 3.4 oz. will be (not allowed into the sterile area) confiscated . (Even if it's a 4 oz. tube of toothpaste that's 3/4ths empty.)
3. Have any medically-necessary liquids out and ready to open for further inspection. (Depending on the airport, your TSO might also fancy themselves a doctor, so be prepared to either explain what the medication is and why you need it or argue with a supervisor.)
4. Take off your coat, even if it's just a windbreaker.
5. Take off your belt.
6. Take off your shoes.
7. Take your laptop out of the bag to be screened separately. (Depending on the airport, you might get yelled at for leaving your 10" netbook in the bag. You might get yelled at for taking it out. You might be angrily asked by a TSO what part of "take your laptop out" you didn't understand--as they wave the iPad they just took out of your otherwise-empty laptop bag in front of your face.)
8. Have your boarding pass and ID ready for every member of your party that requires one. (Either approach the TDC together or approach it one-by-one, depends on airport. You're liable to get barked at either way.)
9. Step into that machine you've never seen before and assume the position. (Even the people standing next to it don't know how it works beyond shouting over and over that it's not radiation.)
10. Wait on the mat for a clear. (But since most TSOs don't bother to mention that part, you're just going to get yelled at for stepping off the mat to get your belongings before the green screen comes up.)
1. Pack liquids, gels and aerosols into a one-quart, clear, resealable plastic baggie.
2. Any containers over 3.4 oz. will be (not allowed into the sterile area) confiscated . (Even if it's a 4 oz. tube of toothpaste that's 3/4ths empty.)
3. Have any medically-necessary liquids out and ready to open for further inspection. (Depending on the airport, your TSO might also fancy themselves a doctor, so be prepared to either explain what the medication is and why you need it or argue with a supervisor.)
4. Take off your coat, even if it's just a windbreaker.
5. Take off your belt.
6. Take off your shoes.
7. Take your laptop out of the bag to be screened separately. (Depending on the airport, you might get yelled at for leaving your 10" netbook in the bag. You might get yelled at for taking it out. You might be angrily asked by a TSO what part of "take your laptop out" you didn't understand--as they wave the iPad they just took out of your otherwise-empty laptop bag in front of your face.)
8. Have your boarding pass and ID ready for every member of your party that requires one. (Either approach the TDC together or approach it one-by-one, depends on airport. You're liable to get barked at either way.)
9. Step into that machine you've never seen before and assume the position. (Even the people standing next to it don't know how it works beyond shouting over and over that it's not radiation.)
10. Wait on the mat for a clear. (But since most TSOs don't bother to mention that part, you're just going to get yelled at for stepping off the mat to get your belongings before the green screen comes up.)
All the more reason to actually READ the rules and make preparations for the trip. Yet even seasoned flyers miss things occasionally and they have had hundreds of checkpoint screenings.
And those are just the written/unwritten rules of the checkpoint I can think of--I haven't even touched on inside the terminal and gate checks. There are two huge problems I see there. One, the TSA expects people to memorize a laundry list of inane rules when, realistically, they might only see an airport twice a year--once on the way out, and once on the way home.
Two is simple consistency. Many airports will tell you that you don't have to take a non-metallic belt off to go through a WTMD. Many will tell you that you can keep your belt on regardless of screening type. Others will have someone standing there to shout at you for leaving your belt on even though the guy at the last airport said it was ok to do so.
The "what qualifies as a laptop" rule frequently drives me up a wall, as I often travel with a laptop, a netbook and a tablet. I always take the laptop out, but I am most certainly not going to leave $3,000+ worth of computer equipment in bins for the first interested party to walk away with while I'm being held up by a false positive on the ATD. I'll leave the netbook and iPad in my locked laptop bag, and deal with the Spanish Inquisition over why my bag is locked ("Because CNN is full of stories of people like you walking off with things like the contents of that bag.") and why I left computer equipment in there in the first place.
I'd almost agree with you here, almost, Ron, except that there's a fundamental flaw in your logic, and it occurs when you assume that the directions at an airport checkpoint, which most people encounter a handful of times a year, are as simple as the directions for using dish soap, which most people encounter every 48 hours or so.
here's some objective data to back you up...
http://www.elliott.org/blog/poll-air...out-tsa-rules/
http://www.elliott.org/blog/poll-air...out-tsa-rules/
#95
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: LHR- ish
Programs: MUCCI, BA Blue
Posts: 4,295
As a matter of interest, could you actually carry concentrated H2O2 in a 'typical' airport beverage container - plastic bottle, paper cup etc? I'm a naval historian rather than a scientist and I know the Germans had enormous trouble finding suitable containers when they were using the stuff for submarine propulsion, obviously they did not have modern plastic packaging available.
Also surely the TSA should regularly test the terminal air quality so as to ensure there is no contamination of the 'tests'.
Also surely the TSA should regularly test the terminal air quality so as to ensure there is no contamination of the 'tests'.
#96
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta TDK(or care)WIA, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,869
10. Recognize that the failure of a screening clerk to know and do his job is your fault.
#97
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: DEN, or so it says...
Programs: UA1K/RCC, Avis CHM, NWA Plat, SPG Plat
Posts: 2,885
How about making sure that the TSA follows their own rules? As a frequent traveler who carries meds, I can assure you that just about every week I meet another TSA agent who thinks he's a doctor, and who thinks he knows better, and who feels the need to challenge me and my condition.
#99
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,007
[QUOTE=TSORon;18934121]
Who cares when the "manufacturer" neither knows the rule nor sticks to them?
TSO's don't know the rules despite being in charge of enforcing them. I think a "seasoned traveler" gets a pass before a TSO.
Most airports have an "all belts off" policy. I can't think of the last time a TSO was given a chance to make a judgement call. I've flown with a simple nylon belt with a plastic buckle, and I have to take it off every time. It's quite pathetic.
You missed a third. ‘Have never read the directions or warnings’. Should that be blamed on the product manufacturer?
All the more reason to actually READ the rules and make preparations for the trip. Yet even seasoned flyers miss things occasionally and they have had hundreds of checkpoint screenings.
Some belts will set off the WTMD, some wont. It’s a judgment call by the TSO as to if a particular belt might make it through or not. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we don’t.
#100
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: Ham Sandwich Medallion
Posts: 889
All the more reason to actually READ the rules and make preparations for the trip. Yet even seasoned flyers miss things occasionally and they have had hundreds of checkpoint screenings.
To bring back a point made earlier in the thread (by Caradoc, I believe), it's not our fault. As I pointed out in my last post, and you acknowledged with the laptop scenario, the rules vary from airport to airport. Shoot, the rules vary from checkpoint to checkpoint at some airports I've been through. And even when the rules are constant, there's no guarantee that the TSOs are following them, as evidenced by the NEXUS/SENTRI card adventures. I have great personal evidence of the variation in rules with the aforementioned laptop game, the belt game (can it stay or must it go?), even the Freedom Baggie game. A few quick examples of the Freedom Baggie game:
DEN: Liquids can be mixed with any other dry toiletries in the same container (for the sake of packing less). The container does not have to be a resealable baggie; a clear, plastic, reasonably-sized toiletry kit will get through just fine.
MSP C/P4: Liquids can be combined with other dry toiletries, but they must be in a clear, plastic sandwich baggie.
MSP C/P1: Liquids can not be combined with other dry toiletries, and must be in a clear, plastic sandwich baggie.
SLC: Liquids must be alone, but they may be placed in some other form of plastic bag-like container.
Note the middle two: different rules, same airport. I'm sure it's not designed that way; rather, there happen to be screeners at MSP who aren't on the same page. They're not even in the same chapter, so someone can be sent through without a hitch one day, then barked at and asked if they want to fly today the next.
Memorize? Not hardly. It’s the reason we post signs, record announcements, and yes have people telling the passengers what they need to do. Honestly if we demanded that they memorize the rules before flight then there would be very few people getting into the sterile area. Lets try and keep the discussion rational, shall we?
Not sure what an ATD is, but OK I get the general concept. Ask that the items be brought into your presence while the additional screening is being conducted. You have that right. And feel free to lock your bag, we wont mind. You may be asked to open the lock, and if unable there is a choice you will need to make. Either we can cut the lock / break into the bag, or not allow that bag into the sterile area. See, another choice!!
I love how you completely dodge the point of the comment here, as well. Rather than addressing the underlying problem (TSOs do not know what the frappucino their own SOP says is a laptop), you've attempted to make it into a problem with the way I pack. Believe it or not, I don't set out to make the lives of TSOs more difficult (not anymore, anyway). I also, however, refuse to make my life more difficult in order to simplify theirs. Leaving a ton of computer equipment in bins for the first interested party--TSO, pax, airport worker, crew, whatever--is something that would make my life considerably more difficult than dealing with being barked at once again because a one-striper doesn't know an iPad from a MacBook.
Well, at least we are getting closer, light at the end of the tunnel I guess. Long tunnel, but still…
#101
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I wish I could respect the TSA, I really do. Thing is, respect is earned, not given. The TSA I deal with now is not an organization worthy of respect. That's not to say there aren't some great TSOs out there, but there are tons who range from stubbornly misinformed to power-tripper to criminal. If a uniform set of simple rules were to be developed and followed by all TSOs at all airports, it would go a long way. At least then we'd know what rules we're expected to play by, right?
#102
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,728
When they get to the airport, some TSA clerk will scream at them anyway for "doing it wrong" because "the website is out of date."
#103
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
To bring back a point made earlier in the thread (by Caradoc, I believe), it's not our fault. As I pointed out in my last post, and you acknowledged with the laptop scenario, the rules vary from airport to airport. Shoot, the rules vary from checkpoint to checkpoint at some airports I've been through. And even when the rules are constant, there's no guarantee that the TSOs are following them, as evidenced by the NEXUS/SENTRI card adventures. I have great personal evidence of the variation in rules with the aforementioned laptop game, the belt game (can it stay or must it go?), even the Freedom Baggie game. A few quick examples of the Freedom Baggie game:
Note the middle two: different rules, same airport. I'm sure it's not designed that way; rather, there happen to be screeners at MSP who aren't on the same page. They're not even in the same chapter, so someone can be sent through without a hitch one day, then barked at and asked if they want to fly today the next.
No, one does not have to memorize everything. But there are certain things that, if not done by the time one arrives at the airport, leaves that person le screwed. Should people reasonably be expected to pack next to their computer so they do everything "right" by website standards (but not necessarily by TSO standards)?
I love how you completely dodge the point of the comment here, as well. Rather than addressing the underlying problem (TSOs do not know what the frappucino their own SOP says is a laptop), you've attempted to make it into a problem with the way I pack. Believe it or not, I don't set out to make the lives of TSOs more difficult (not anymore, anyway). I also, however, refuse to make my life more difficult in order to simplify theirs. Leaving a ton of computer equipment in bins for the first interested party--TSO, pax, airport worker, crew, whatever--is something that would make my life considerably more difficult than dealing with being barked at once again because a one-striper doesn't know an iPad from a MacBook.
I wish I could respect the TSA, I really do. Thing is, respect is earned, not given. The TSA I deal with now is not an organization worthy of respect. That's not to say there aren't some great TSOs out there, but there are tons who range from stubbornly misinformed to power-tripper to criminal. If a uniform set of simple rules were to be developed and followed by all TSOs at all airports, it would go a long way. At least then we'd know what rules we're expected to play by, right?
#105
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: Ham Sandwich Medallion
Posts: 889
The “problem” with rules that the TSA has, and every other large scale endeavor in human history, is that different people take away different meaning from the same words. While one FSD may read the SOP to mean meds in a quart sized baggie, another may read it to mean “will fit in a quart sized baggie”, and then the differences start. They read the same SOP yet draw different conclusions. And it’s not just TSA, its everywhere. It’s human nature, and there is no way to completely remove that from our nature.
I'm not asking for a TSO to stand there with a ruler so that my 10" netbook can go through the X-ray without a fight. Nitpicking like that would be a disaster and could easily drive checkpoints to a standstill, but is it too much to ask that the FSD ensure his/her screeners have a clear understanding of laptop vs. tablet?
I would genuinely have much less of an issue with the TSA if the rules were uniform vs. airport-by-airport. Different people will interpret things differently--unless the directives are written in a crystal-clear manner and enforced as such.
I don’t dodge them, I ignore them. Most don’t even deserve an answer due to the blatant intentional ignorance exhibited in them. Why should I continue to explain the facts to those who don’t really want to know them?
You give each TSO the respect you think they deserve, and separately give the TSA the respect you think it deserves. That’s how honest people do it.