Caradoc

And that seems to be the root of many problems. The TSA can't even train its own personnel not to shout at people for following the directions they've been already been given.

ratherhike

here's some objective data to back you up...
http://www.elliott.org/blog/poll-air...out-tsa-rules/

BubbaLoop

Correct, H2O2 has a high boiling point, so almost no molecules will vaporize (certainly not enough to be detected by a low sensitivity method such as a test strip). Even close to the boiling point of H2O2 (150 oC), because of its instability, most of it will decompose into water and O2, and not form vapors. You can only vaporize H2O2 effectively with special equipment, which is used to sterilize environments (and makes them unihabitable for humans during the process).

OK, that was definately 6th grade! No. Being in vapor form means they fly around. There is plenty of O2 floating around in the air, and the difference in mass between O2 and H2O2 is very small. But the reality is that the amount of H2O2 in gas form will be very small at any given time, due to the low ability of this molecule to vaporize.

TSORon

You missed a third. ‘Have never read the directions or warnings’. Should that be blamed on the product manufacturer?

(small corrections mine)

All the more reason to actually READ the rules and make preparations for the trip. Yet even seasoned flyers miss things occasionally and they have had hundreds of checkpoint screenings.

Memorize? Not hardly. It’s the reason we post signs, record announcements, and yes have people telling the passengers what they need to do. Honestly if we demanded that they memorize the rules before flight then there would be very few people getting into the sterile area. Lets try and keep the discussion rational, shall we?

Some belts will set off the WTMD, some wont. It’s a judgment call by the TSO as to if a particular belt might make it through or not. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we don’t.

Not sure what an ATD is, but OK I get the general concept. Ask that the items be brought into your presence while the additional screening is being conducted. You have that right. And feel free to lock your bag, we wont mind. You may be asked to open the lock, and if unable there is a choice you will need to make. Either we can cut the lock / break into the bag, or not allow that bag into the sterile area. See, another choice!!

Well, at least we are getting closer, light at the end of the tunnel I guess. Long tunnel, but still…

Interesting, I’d not seen that one before (thanks BTW). “according to a poll conducted in cooperation with the Consumer Travel Alliance.” “in cooperation with”. Hmmm, I wonder who actually commissioned the poll? The answer to that question might be very telling as to why the numbers are the way they are.

exilencfc

As a matter of interest, could you actually carry concentrated H2O2 in a 'typical' airport beverage container - plastic bottle, paper cup etc? I'm a naval historian rather than a scientist and I know the Germans had enormous trouble finding suitable containers when they were using the stuff for submarine propulsion, obviously they did not have modern plastic packaging available.

Also surely the TSA should regularly test the terminal air quality so as to ensure there is no contamination of the 'tests'.

Carl Johnson

9. Anticipate whether or not the boarding pass scribbler will have failed to pay attention during training and therefore will not recognize the ID you present, even though it is prominently listed on the TSA's website as an acceptable form of ID.

10. Recognize that the failure of a screening clerk to know and do his job is your fault.

dimramon

How about making sure that the TSA follows their own rules? As a frequent traveler who carries meds, I can assure you that just about every week I meet another TSA agent who thinks he's a doctor, and who thinks he knows better, and who feels the need to challenge me and my condition.

Caradoc

What, more retraining for the silly gits who didn't learn anything the first time? Or the second?

Pesky Monkey

[QUOTE=TSORon;18934121] Who cares when the "manufacturer" neither knows the rule nor sticks to them?

TSO's don't know the rules despite being in charge of enforcing them. I think a "seasoned traveler" gets a pass before a TSO.

Most airports have an "all belts off" policy. I can't think of the last time a TSO was given a chance to make a judgement call. I've flown with a simple nylon belt with a plastic buckle, and I have to take it off every time. It's quite pathetic.

T.J. Bender

People don't have to read directions to know how to use dish or laundry soap. It's intuitive. Why can't the process for going through a checkpoint be as simple and intuitive as loading a dishwasher?

I'm picking up a bit of a theme to your argument here: "If people have problems at the checkpoint, it's their fault for not knowing the rules."

To bring back a point made earlier in the thread (by Caradoc, I believe), it's not our fault. As I pointed out in my last post, and you acknowledged with the laptop scenario, the rules vary from airport to airport. Shoot, the rules vary from checkpoint to checkpoint at some airports I've been through. And even when the rules are constant, there's no guarantee that the TSOs are following them, as evidenced by the NEXUS/SENTRI card adventures. I have great personal evidence of the variation in rules with the aforementioned laptop game, the belt game (can it stay or must it go?), even the Freedom Baggie game. A few quick examples of the Freedom Baggie game:

DEN: Liquids can be mixed with any other dry toiletries in the same container (for the sake of packing less). The container does not have to be a resealable baggie; a clear, plastic, reasonably-sized toiletry kit will get through just fine.
MSP C/P4: Liquids can be combined with other dry toiletries, but they must be in a clear, plastic sandwich baggie.
MSP C/P1: Liquids can not be combined with other dry toiletries, and must be in a clear, plastic sandwich baggie.
SLC: Liquids must be alone, but they may be placed in some other form of plastic bag-like container.

Note the middle two: different rules, same airport. I'm sure it's not designed that way; rather, there happen to be screeners at MSP who aren't on the same page. They're not even in the same chapter, so someone can be sent through without a hitch one day, then barked at and asked if they want to fly today the next.


No, one does not have to memorize everything. But there are certain things that, if not done by the time one arrives at the airport, leaves that person le screwed. Should people reasonably be expected to pack next to their computer so they do everything "right" by website standards (but not necessarily by TSO standards)?

ATD is the technology that is attached to MMWs (and, now, BKSX?) that detects "anomalies" on a person. It's the stuff I love, because it's always finding "anomalies" on my right ankle, or my left shoulder, or my left shin, etc.

I love how you completely dodge the point of the comment here, as well. Rather than addressing the underlying problem (TSOs do not know what the frappucino their own SOP says is a laptop), you've attempted to make it into a problem with the way I pack. Believe it or not, I don't set out to make the lives of TSOs more difficult (not anymore, anyway). I also, however, refuse to make my life more difficult in order to simplify theirs. Leaving a ton of computer equipment in bins for the first interested party--TSO, pax, airport worker, crew, whatever--is something that would make my life considerably more difficult than dealing with being barked at once again because a one-striper doesn't know an iPad from a MacBook.

I wish I could respect the TSA, I really do. Thing is, respect is earned, not given. The TSA I deal with now is not an organization worthy of respect. That's not to say there aren't some great TSOs out there, but there are tons who range from stubbornly misinformed to power-tripper to criminal. If a uniform set of simple rules were to be developed and followed by all TSOs at all airports, it would go a long way. At least then we'd know what rules we're expected to play by, right?

InkUnderNails

I go through TSA CP's about 80-100 times per year, most at my home airport, of course. Every time, without exception, the thing that concerns me is "Well, I wonder what the rules are today?"

Caradoc

When they get to the airport, some TSA clerk will scream at them anyway for "doing it wrong" because "the website is out of date."

TSORon

Intuitive? Wow, you have a greater faith in the capabilities of your fellow humans than I do. Unfortunately history shows us that human nature being what it is there is little that our fellow humans cant use to harm themselves or others with, intentionally or not.

No, not it. It’s the reason we have people helping, giving instructions. People have problems when they argue about the rules that they have not read or prepared for. Knowing the rules is a responsibility, one that less than half of passengers accept, and we know this. Its why part of our training is to assist the passenger in meeting the requirements. But then to turn around and argue about them? That’s the problem.

The “problem” with rules that the TSA has, and every other large scale endeavor in human history, is that different people take away different meaning from the same words. While one FSD may read the SOP to mean meds in a quart sized baggie, another may read it to mean “will fit in a quart sized baggie”, and then the differences start. They read the same SOP yet draw different conclusions. And it’s not just TSA, its everywhere. It’s human nature, and there is no way to completely remove that from our nature.

That part of human nature is not limited to leaders, it’s a part of us all. No amount of training or even brainwashing will fix it, and robots cannot do our job.

Again, no. It’s why we have people explaining how to transit the checkpoint. And again, even if they had the rules memorized, human nature as explained above would exert itself and one passenger would have read the rule and come to an understanding far different than any others. Passengers aint robots either.

Ahh, we call it ATR.

I don’t dodge them, I ignore them. Most don’t even deserve an answer due to the blatant intentional ignorance exhibited in them. Why should I continue to explain the facts to those who don’t really want to know them?

I wish I could eat apple pie all day long and not get fat, but I know better. You give each TSO the respect you think they deserve, and separately give the TSA the respect you think it deserves. That’s how honest people do it. The individual is not the institution, and the institution does not define the individual. If all you see is the uniform then you are doing a disservice to the individual as well as the rest of humanity, yourself included. That’s how respect actually works, each individual makes their own decisions on what and how much (if at all). I “respect” the authority of the supervisors I work with because someone thought they had earned their position, that does not mean that I respect the individual in the position. I may think he or she is a total jerk, but it’s not my place to judge their competence.

lovely15

So zero then?

T.J. Bender

But, see, that's the thing. If the words were written clearly (and I admit, I haven't seen them), there would be no ambiguity in there. If the rules say, "Liquids, gels and aerosols must be separated from all other toiletries and placed in a one-quart resealable plastic bag," where is the room for error on the part of the FSD? If things are written in clear, plain, direct English, one would hope that those in charge of enforcing those rules have a good understanding of them.

I'm not asking for a TSO to stand there with a ruler so that my 10" netbook can go through the X-ray without a fight. Nitpicking like that would be a disaster and could easily drive checkpoints to a standstill, but is it too much to ask that the FSD ensure his/her screeners have a clear understanding of laptop vs. tablet?

I would genuinely have much less of an issue with the TSA if the rules were uniform vs. airport-by-airport. Different people will interpret things differently--unless the directives are written in a crystal-clear manner and enforced as such.

I guess you and I have a differing opinion on what constitutes a "fact" then. What you've presented are your own opinions about why people don't follow the guidelines at checkpoints, backed up by factual accounts from your own experience. I've, likewise, largely presented my own opinions backed up with factual experiences. I think I've made the underlying question here pretty clear, but I'll elaborate on it a little further: I'm sure you've seen the TSA SOP. I wouldn't ask you to jeopardize your job by revealing SSI, but I will ask you if the verbiage in there is crystal clear, or if it leaves lots of room for interpretation. If the verbiage is crystal clear, why do I still see screeners seemingly making up their own rules, and supervisors not addressing it?

Well, I like to think I'm an honest person, and that's how I go about deciding where my respect ends up. I'm probably in the minority here when I say that I'm pleasant with TSOs so long as they're pleasant with me. That said, if one is standing next to me barking their lungs out at 4:00 AM when I'm the only person in line, then asking me if I've removed my laptop after watching me do so before finally inquiring loudly as to why I've developed an attitude towards them, well, no. They're not going to get any respect. They're most likely going to be asked to summon a supervisor if they feel the need for any further communication with me, as I'm done dealing with them.