Discussion: Constitutionality of BOS (Logan) BDO program
Aug 22, 2011 | 5:06 pm
#301
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SJC
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 1,628
The crux of the issue in Gilmore was that the TSA would permit him to fly without showing ID, provided he consented to additional screening of his person and property, which was then called "secondary screening". Gilmore did not want to go through that secondary screening. The court said that if a reasonable alternative to not showing ID existed, then the TSA requirement was permissible.
I remember, for a time, that TSA's policy on lack of ID was:
- if you lost or forgot your ID, you would endure additional physical screening
- if you had ID but refused to show it, you weren't allowed past security
Today, it appears that not having an ID means you go into a room and answer a bunch of questions about yourself, and possibly endure additional physical screening. To me, that sounds like a violation of the Gilmore decision, in spirit if not in literal interpretation.
Aug 22, 2011 | 5:20 pm
#302
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,972
The crux of the issue in Gilmore was that the TSA would permit him to fly without showing ID, provided he consented to additional screening of his person and property, which was then called "secondary screening". Gilmore did not want to go through that secondary screening. The court said that if a reasonable alternative to not showing ID existed, then the TSA requirement was permissible.
Two items that are not addressed given today's TSA environment are (1) whether the WBI meets the tests for even secondary screening and (2) the TSA requirement that you will not be permitted to enter the sterile area if you have an ID on your person, but refuse to show it.
Two items that are not addressed given today's TSA environment are (1) whether the WBI meets the tests for even secondary screening and (2) the TSA requirement that you will not be permitted to enter the sterile area if you have an ID on your person, but refuse to show it.
a) pronouncing your name
b) answering damnfool (sorry, immaterial) questions.
If the reasonable alternative per Gilmore is still in force, then that court opinion is still valid. If not then that opinion is surely now moot and can not be cited as a precedent; unfortunately we're not likely to see it put to the test.
Aug 22, 2011 | 8:11 pm
#303
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: JAX
Programs: Delta Platinum, Delta 1MM, HHonors Lifetime Diamond, Hertz - PC, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 121
b) damnfool is correct.
Aug 22, 2011 | 10:28 pm
#304
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Louisville, KY, US
Programs: QF Plat - OW EMD | DL Gold / Starwood Gold
Posts: 6,106
When a SPOTnik asks a question, just keep repeating this phrase to the SPOTnit:
"I lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief"
"Again, for questions 1 through 10, I restate and reallege I lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief"
"I lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief"
"Again, for questions 1 through 10, I restate and reallege I lack knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief"
Aug 23, 2011 | 12:22 pm
#305
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London; Bangkok; Las Vegas
Programs: AA Exec Plat; UA MM Gold; Marriott Lifetime Titanium; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,876
Sep 10, 2011 | 7:42 pm
#307
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: AA, DL
Posts: 328
What to do with the TSA short term-
1. Stop the use and deployment of body scanning machines. They don't see into body cavities, under folds of flesh, or detect explosives. They are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses, and there are no peer-reviewed studies that back up the government's claim they are safe.
Properly procured and administrated use of Explosive Trace Detection Portals (puffers) addresses the technical shortcomings of the body scanners, while at the same time are non-intrusive and pose no health risks. Its unfortunate that the Chertoff Group and other lobbyists that profit from the deployment of body scanners have no interest in ETP technology that is being used in venues as varied as nuclear installations and the CN Tower in Toronto.
ETP, coupled with Walk Through Metal Detectors and x-ray of bags, is real security at the checkpoint, without the need for genital gropes.
2. Full accountability of TSA employees. A Citizen Review Board should be established to investigate allegations of screener abuse. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screeners, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today?
3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.
4. End the removal of shoes. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.
5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.
4. The wearing of metal police badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screeners name and identification number that is plainly visible. Phase out the police uniform and replace it with something that reflects the fact that screeners have no law enforcement powers. Eliminate the TSA Honor Guard as there is no need for screeners to dress up in costumes and parade around. Stop trying to cash in on the respect that people that serve in the military have earned.
5. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.
6. Stop trying to encroach on privately owned aircraft and kill LASP dead in its tracks. The Inspector General has determined that private aircraft are not a threat. Personal Liberties For the first time, the TSAs regulatory activities would be extended to personal GA aircraft, historic and vintage aircraft, and operators, passengers, and pilots flying for personal and business use. As such, the LASP is a radical departure from anything the TSA has enacted to date. It would, in effect, require governmental review and authority before you could operate your own personal vehicle.
7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.
8. End the mission creep. No more TSA appearances at sporting events, bus and train stations, or highways. Let the real law enforcement professionals tasked with these venues handle things without interference from the TSA. Why is the TSA showing up at thousands of non-airport venues every year when the own Red Team test score failures are "off the charts" according to Rep. Mica?
9. The junk science SPOT program gets the boot.
10. Stop any consideration of having screeners armed with firearms, or having any law enforcement powers. We hear of continuous cases where airport LEOs are the last line of defense against abuse by TSA screeners.
What to do with the TSA long term-
The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
1. Stop the use and deployment of body scanning machines. They don't see into body cavities, under folds of flesh, or detect explosives. They are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses, and there are no peer-reviewed studies that back up the government's claim they are safe.
Properly procured and administrated use of Explosive Trace Detection Portals (puffers) addresses the technical shortcomings of the body scanners, while at the same time are non-intrusive and pose no health risks. Its unfortunate that the Chertoff Group and other lobbyists that profit from the deployment of body scanners have no interest in ETP technology that is being used in venues as varied as nuclear installations and the CN Tower in Toronto.
ETP, coupled with Walk Through Metal Detectors and x-ray of bags, is real security at the checkpoint, without the need for genital gropes.
2. Full accountability of TSA employees. A Citizen Review Board should be established to investigate allegations of screener abuse. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screeners, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today?
3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.
4. End the removal of shoes. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.
5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.
4. The wearing of metal police badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screeners name and identification number that is plainly visible. Phase out the police uniform and replace it with something that reflects the fact that screeners have no law enforcement powers. Eliminate the TSA Honor Guard as there is no need for screeners to dress up in costumes and parade around. Stop trying to cash in on the respect that people that serve in the military have earned.
5. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.
6. Stop trying to encroach on privately owned aircraft and kill LASP dead in its tracks. The Inspector General has determined that private aircraft are not a threat. Personal Liberties For the first time, the TSAs regulatory activities would be extended to personal GA aircraft, historic and vintage aircraft, and operators, passengers, and pilots flying for personal and business use. As such, the LASP is a radical departure from anything the TSA has enacted to date. It would, in effect, require governmental review and authority before you could operate your own personal vehicle.
7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.
8. End the mission creep. No more TSA appearances at sporting events, bus and train stations, or highways. Let the real law enforcement professionals tasked with these venues handle things without interference from the TSA. Why is the TSA showing up at thousands of non-airport venues every year when the own Red Team test score failures are "off the charts" according to Rep. Mica?
9. The junk science SPOT program gets the boot.
10. Stop any consideration of having screeners armed with firearms, or having any law enforcement powers. We hear of continuous cases where airport LEOs are the last line of defense against abuse by TSA screeners.
What to do with the TSA long term-
The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
Sep 10, 2011 | 7:51 pm
#308
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
- The potential for greater accountability. The difficulty of dismissing a federal employee for cause --- even without the presence of a union --- has been noted numerous times.
- The potential for fewer tangential investigative threads. The point has been made that TSOs, as federal employees, cannot simply "overlook" evidence of a federal crime being committed (e.g. drug smuggling), even if that crime has no direct bearing on air safety. I suspect that private employees would have no similar obligation.
- The potential for improved performance and/or costs, due to competition in the private sector to provide those services.
I'm not convinced either way ... other than to agree that the discussion is worth having.
Sep 10, 2011 | 8:08 pm
#309
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: AA, DL
Posts: 328
They'll just resort to hunting Mexicans again.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-14/t...t?_s=PM:TRAVEL
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-14/t...t?_s=PM:TRAVEL
Not even remotely funny.
... passengers would be subjected to bag searches, pat downs, questioning and referrals to immigration with bogus behaviors invented by the screeners to cover up the real reason the passengers were singled out.
...
Though the Boston report does not say how many BDOs in Newark were racially profiling passengers, it leaves no doubt that the practice was widespread, lasting from early 2008 to late 2009, when investigators began looking into the issue....
The report found that managers emphasis on referrals created a perception among BDOs that there was a quota system in place, and that promotions depended on their producing high numbers.
...
Though the Boston report does not say how many BDOs in Newark were racially profiling passengers, it leaves no doubt that the practice was widespread, lasting from early 2008 to late 2009, when investigators began looking into the issue....
The report found that managers emphasis on referrals created a perception among BDOs that there was a quota system in place, and that promotions depended on their producing high numbers.
Ironic that that report on TSA racial profiling at Newark Airport was called "the Boston report," given that the current pilot project is now underway at BOS.
Sep 10, 2011 | 8:10 pm
#310
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: AA, DL
Posts: 328
- The potential for greater accountability. The difficulty of dismissing a federal employee for cause --- even without the presence of a union --- has been noted numerous times.
- The potential for fewer tangential investigative threads. The point has been made that TSOs, as federal employees, cannot simply "overlook" evidence of a federal crime being committed (e.g. drug smuggling), even if that crime has no direct bearing on air safety. I suspect that private employees would have no similar obligation.
- The potential for improved performance and/or costs, due to competition in the private sector to provide those services.
Sep 10, 2011 | 8:15 pm
#311
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,957
To follow up on a few issues, I came across a TSA form entitled "Certification of Identity" that I had for when someone does not have ID to show and they have to provide their name and address, sign it and date it. It does have the Privacy Act Notice:
So at the time this form was created, the CFR sections that were used to obtain personal information were no more than what was discussed above, so TSA's analysis to use those sections as authority fails unless you use Francine and her Google searches to create a tortured reasoning.
Secondly, the form has the 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 language, which may mean that the TSA views false statements made to the TSA as punishable thereunder.
This information is being collected in accordance with 49 U.S.C. 114(f) and 49 C.F.R. 1540.105(a)(2), 1540.107 in order to verify your identity and complete the passenger screening process. This information may be shared with the Department of Justice or other Federal agency in the review, settlement, defense, and prosecution of claims, complaints, and lawsuits over matters in which TSA exercises jurisdiction, or for routine uses identified in TSAs systems of records, DHS/TSA 001 Transportation Security Enforcement Record System (TSERS) or DHS/TSA 002 Transportation Security Threat Assessment System (TSTAS). Disclosure of this information is voluntary; however, failure to furnish the requested information may result in an inability to complete the security screening process and, consequently, an inability to grant you access to the sterile area.
False statements may be punishable under the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 by fine, imprisonment or both.
False statements may be punishable under the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 by fine, imprisonment or both.
Secondly, the form has the 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 language, which may mean that the TSA views false statements made to the TSA as punishable thereunder.
Sep 10, 2011 | 8:26 pm
#312
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: AA, DL
Posts: 328
Getting back to the issue of the slippery slope to racial profiling that this BDO program is on ...
Unfortunately, there are all too many voices, even among members of Congress, overtly calling for routine use by the TSA of profiling based on race, ethnicity, and religion.
http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...tra-profiling/
http://mediamatters.org/research/201011190045
Throw in a measly 4 - 5 days of training and pressure to meet implicit quotas into that mix and there's no way that this program can not lead to abuses of civil liberties.
Unfortunately, there are all too many voices, even among members of Congress, overtly calling for routine use by the TSA of profiling based on race, ethnicity, and religion.
http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...tra-profiling/
http://mediamatters.org/research/201011190045
Throw in a measly 4 - 5 days of training and pressure to meet implicit quotas into that mix and there's no way that this program can not lead to abuses of civil liberties.
Sep 10, 2011 | 8:30 pm
#313
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
(Ok, that wasn't the most obvious answer, but I'm trying to keep us out of OMNI.
)
Sep 11, 2011 | 8:05 am
#314
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,430
Originally Posted by LeslieJam
I'm not a fan of TSA, but if it keeps us safe, it is worth it, and if modeled after El Al hard to argue their success in passenger safety.
"At Logan, about 70 agents all with college degrees are undergoing training by an international consulting firm that includes a four-day classroom course and 24 hours of on-the-job experience, said TSA spokeswoman Ann Davis."
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...icleid=1355725
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...icleid=1355725
And only four days in the classroom to turn a person into a human polygraph? Give me a break; it takes twelve weeks to learn how to OPERATE an electronic polygraph!
What surprise? The program is using a standardized set of questions, which are only surprising the first time they're asked; after the first time, they're not surprising any more, and the responses are all prepared in the brain before the questions are asked.
Sep 11, 2011 | 9:45 am
#315
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 48,888
Getting back to the issue of the slippery slope to racial profiling that this BDO program is on ...
Unfortunately, there are all too many voices, even among members of Congress, overtly calling for routine use by the TSA of profiling based on race, ethnicity, and religion.
Throw in a measly 4 - 5 days of training and pressure to meet implicit quotas into that mix and there's no way that this program can not lead to abuses of civil liberties.
Unfortunately, there are all too many voices, even among members of Congress, overtly calling for routine use by the TSA of profiling based on race, ethnicity, and religion.
Throw in a measly 4 - 5 days of training and pressure to meet implicit quotas into that mix and there's no way that this program can not lead to abuses of civil liberties.
These same voices no doubt envision a much smoother experience at the checkpoint - white grandma can take her oversize bottle of shampoo, little white boy won't get groped.
It never occurs to these voices that the 'profiling' isn't going to change the checkpoint into a 2-layer system, sanity for 'good folks' and a multi-layered gauntlet for the suspicious folks. These are probably some of the same voices who didn't realize that being 'innocent' and subjecting one's self to the NoS was absolutely no guarantee one wouldn't get groped. The BDO harassment will simply be layered atop everything else.
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. I wonder if 'trusted travellers' will still have to run the BDO gauntlet?
Re: Israeli security. Can't remember her name now, but a US Cabinet Secretary (IIRC) got pulled aside for a very extended screening coming back from Israel. I think, although she obviously didn't say so, that she was shocked because she naturally assumed that as an American political figure, she was above suspicion.
