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Discussion: Constitutionality of BOS (Logan) BDO program

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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 11:48 am
  #316  
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Originally Posted by chollie
The irony is that many, if not all, of those voices are from folks who are certain that they won't fit the 'profile'. They are foolish enough to envision a checkpoint where only the 'suspicious' folks are singled out, via profiling, for manhandling of their persons and their belongings.

These same voices no doubt envision a much smoother experience at the checkpoint - white grandma can take her oversize bottle of shampoo, little white boy won't get groped.

It never occurs to these voices that the 'profiling' isn't going to change the checkpoint into a 2-layer system, sanity for 'good folks' and a multi-layered gauntlet for the suspicious folks. These are probably some of the same voices who didn't realize that being 'innocent' and subjecting one's self to the NoS was absolutely no guarantee one wouldn't get groped. The BDO harassment will simply be layered atop everything else.


I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. I wonder if 'trusted travellers' will still have to run the BDO gauntlet?

Re: Israeli security. Can't remember her name now, but a US Cabinet Secretary (IIRC) got pulled aside for a very extended screening coming back from Israel. I think, although she obviously didn't say so, that she was shocked because she naturally assumed that as an American political figure, she was above suspicion.
Agreed.

And their line of reasoning renders them vulnerable to the kind of mistake that was made in the Oslo terrorist attacks a few weeks ago. Assuming that only 'those other' people can commit atrocities leads to completely missing the real people who are actually in the act of committing atrocities and could have been stopped had the blinders been taken off.
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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 12:09 pm
  #317  
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Originally Posted by chollie
Can't remember her name now, but a US Cabinet Secretary (IIRC) got pulled aside for a very extended screening coming back from Israel. I think, although she obviously didn't say so, that she was shocked because she naturally assumed that as an American political figure, she was above suspicion.
I missed that story. But there was the case recently of India's ambassador to the US being subjected to a patdown because (allegedly) she was wearing a sari, despite her having presented her diplomatic credentials.
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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 12:27 pm
  #318  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
Neither you nor the article mention - exactly WHAT degrees are held by these agents? Are they required to have degrees in psychology? Psychiatry? Criminal justice? Anti-terrorism? Or are degrees in English Lit, Physical Fitness, Architecture, or Civil Engineering enough to satisfy the "college degree" requirement?

And only four days in the classroom to turn a person into a human polygraph? Give me a break; it takes twelve weeks to learn how to OPERATE an electronic polygraph!
Also note the requirements to even get a placement in this polygraph training school.

BASIC POLYGRAPH COURSE - ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS
We strongly suggest that candidates have at least a four-year degree in one of the Social Sciences, and also investigative experience, as well as skills and experience in interpersonal interviews/interrogations. However, we will consider candidates who have combinations of formal education and other life experience credits, together with investigative and interview experience, if they convince the Director that discretionary waiver should be granted.
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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 1:55 pm
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Originally Posted by rgfloor
BASIC POLYGRAPH COURSE - ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS
We strongly suggest that candidates have at least a four-year degree in one of the Social Sciences, and also investigative experience, as well as skills and experience in interpersonal interviews/interrogations. However, we will consider candidates who have combinations of formal education and other life experience credits, together with investigative and interview experience, if they convince the Director that discretionary waiver should be granted.
Nah, you just read that off a pizza box.

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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 2:44 pm
  #320  
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Originally Posted by 14940674
"At Logan, about 70 agents — all with college degrees — are undergoing training by an international consulting firm that includes a four-day classroom course and 24 hours of on-the-job experience, said TSA spokeswoman Ann Davis."

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...icleid=1355725
Originally Posted by neko
"college-educated" or "has a 4-year degree from an accredited university"?
Originally Posted by N965VJ
Would auto body classes at Cuyahoga Community College count?
Originally Posted by WillCAD
And only four days in the classroom to turn a person into a human polygraph? Give me a break; it takes twelve weeks to learn how to OPERATE an electronic polygraph!
Just bring back the draft (but without the exemptions for rich and politically well-connected folks).
The gold standard for safety is El Al, which hasn't had a hijacking since 1968. The airline declines to discuss specific security measures. El Al Chairman Israel Borovich said Aug. 10 on Bloomberg TV that Israel's compulsory military service means El Al employees are better prepared for security-related tasks.

"Many of our employees have to do reserve duty,'' he said. "Many of our pilots are serving in the military. That's part of the way of life in Israel.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aFyfihM1e3G4
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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 3:14 pm
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The gold standard for safety is El Al, which hasn't had a hijacking since 1968.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...ijacking_x.htm

OK so it was only an attempted hijack, but how did he get pasted the vaunted Israeli security ?
I do wish everyone would shut the h*** up about El Al. This isn't Israel and I don't want that type of 'safety' thank you.
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Old Sep 11, 2011 | 10:11 pm
  #322  
 
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...ijacking_x.htm

OK so it was only an attempted hijack, but how did he get pasted the vaunted Israeli security ?
I do wish everyone would shut the h*** up about El Al. This isn't Israel and I don't want that type of 'safety' thank you.
Evidently the Turks don't like it either. They're retaliating by strip searching Israelis coming to Turkey
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 5:21 pm
  #323  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Can anyone explain to me how interrogation by TSA fits the carve out for an Administrative Search limited to WEI?
Good question.
Not directly answering that question, here are a few nuggets to chew on
:


IN GENERAL.The Under Secretary of Transportation for Security may take the following actions:
...
(7) Provide for the use of voice stress analysis, biometric, or other technologies to prevent a person who might pose a danger to air safety or security from boarding the aircraft of an air carrier or foreign air carrier in air transportation or intrastate air transportation.
Public Law 10771, title I, 109, Nov. 19, 2001, 115 Stat. 613


The Administrator of the Transportation Security Administration shall provide advanced training to transportation security officers for the development of specialized security skills, including behavior observation and analysis, explosives detection, and document examination, in order to enhance the effectiveness of layered transportation security measures.
Public Law 110-53, title XII, Sec. 1203(b), Aug. 3, 2007, 121 Stat. 385


The identification policy requires that airline passengers either present identification or be subjected to a more extensive search. The more extensive search is similar to searches that we have determined were reasonable and "consistent with a full recognition of appellants constitutional right to travel." United States v. Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 912-13 (9th Cir. 1973).

In Davis, an airline employee searched the defendants briefcase as part of the airports preboarding screening procedure.... we held that airport screening searches of potential passengers and their immediate possessions for weapons and explosives is reasonable so long as each potential passenger maintains the right to leave the airport instead of submitting to the search. Id. at 912. In so holding, we considered several airport screening procedures, including behavioral profiling, magnetometer screening, identification check, and physical search of the passengers person and carry-on baggage. Id. at 900. We see little difference between the search measures discussed in Davis and those that comprise the "selectee" search option of the passenger identification policy at hand. Additionally, Gilmore was free to decline both options and use a different mode of transportation. In sum, by requiring Gilmore to comply with the identification policy, Defendants did not violate his right to travel.
Gilmore v. Gonzales, 435 F.3d 1125, 1155-1156 (9th Cir. 2006) - pdf file


Beginning in October 1968, a Federal Aviation Administration task force, including representatives of the Department of Justice and the Department of Commerce, compiled a "profile" of objective characteristics to identify potential hijackers. In December 1968, the Federal Aviation Administration held an intensive high-level symposium on the development of devices for the screening of individuals for possession of concealed weapons. The FAA Task Force, working in cooperation with the carriers, then developed the initial anti-hijacking "system."

Although the specific elements varied over a period of time, the system generally included, first, the use of the "profile," next, the use of a magnetometer to detect the presence of metal on any prospective passenger who met the "profile," and finally, a weapons search of the carry-on luggage and/or person of anyone who activated the magnetometer.

The FAA and the airlines worked together to put the system into operation at the nation's airports. As a part of this cooperative effort, United States deputy marshals and Customs Service agents were made available to carry out searches and make arrests. By September 1970, approximately 400 United States deputy marshals were assigned to surveillance and search activities at airport boarding gates....

On February 1, 1972, the FAA issued a rule requiring air carriers to adopt and put into use within 72 hours a screening system "acceptable" to the FAA "to prevent or deter the carriage aboard its aircraft of sabotage devices or weapons in carry-on baggage or on or about the persons of passengers." This system was to require the screening of all airline passengers "by one or more of the following systems: behavioral profile, magnetometer, identification check, physical search."
...
On August 1, 1972, the FAA issued a directive that no airline "shall permit any person" meeting the profile to board a plane unless his carry-on baggage had been searched and he had been cleared through a metal detector or had submitted to a "consent search" prior to boarding. On December 5, 1972, the FAA ordered that searches of all carry-on items and magnetometer screening of all passengers be instituted by January 5, 1973. Routine screening and searching under this procedure was to be conducted by airline personnel, but in the presence of armed law enforcement officers "(1) Authorized to carry and use firearms," and "(2) Vested with a police power of arrest under Federal, State, or other political subdivision authority.

...

It makes no difference that the act of opening appellant's briefcase was accomplished by a "private" airline employee rather than a "public" official. The search was part of the overall, nationwide anti-hijacking effort, and constituted "state action" for purposes of the Fourth Amendment.

...

[T]he need for some limitations upon these rights [the passenger's right to travel and right to personal privacy] is clear. In light of that need, a screening of passengers and of the articles that will be accessible to them in flight does not exceed constitutional limitations provided that the screening process is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.
United States v. Davis, 482 F.2d 893 (9th Circ. 1973)
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 6:48 pm
  #324  
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Today, 6:21 pm #323
battensea



Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Can anyone explain to me how interrogation by TSA fits the carve out for an Administrative Search limited to WEI?

Good question.
Not directly answering that question, here are a few nuggets to chew on:



[T]he need for some limitations upon these rights [the passenger's right to travel and right to personal privacy] is clear. In light of that need, a screening of passengers and of the articles that will be accessible to them in flight does not exceed constitutional limitations provided that the screening process is no more extensive nor intensive than necessary, in the light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives, that it is confined in good faith to that purpose, and that potential passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.

United States v. Davis, 482 F.2d 893 (9th Circ. 1973)
Seems any form of interrogation does not detect the presence of weapons or exlosives and if so the BDO interrogation trial violates the accepted boundaries of an Administrative Search.
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Old Sep 12, 2011 | 7:04 pm
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Seems any form of interrogation does not detect the presence of weapons or exlosives and if so the BDO interrogation trial violates the accepted boundaries of an Administrative Search.
Is the criteria whether it detects it or whether it's designed to detect it?
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 4:15 am
  #326  
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Originally Posted by RichardKenner
Is the criteria whether it detects it or whether it's designed to detect it?
I forget who it is, but someone on FT has a signature that states, "The purpose of a system is what it does." In other words, it doesn't matter what you originally intended a system or device to do; the only thing that matters is what it actually DOES.

Interrogations by government actors, no matter their intent or results, are still interrogations, and are still covered by 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendment restrictions.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 5:50 am
  #327  
 
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
I forget who it is, but someone on FT has a signature that states, "The purpose of a system is what it does." In other words, it doesn't matter what you originally intended a system or device to do; the only thing that matters is what it actually DOES.

Interrogations by government actors, no matter their intent or results, are still interrogations, and are still covered by 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendment restrictions.
Thanks for giving be an opening to add a little detail to my signature. The quote is from an engineer, David Livingston, that observed that all systems, as they become more and more complex in response to corrections, modifications, "improvements" and other changes at some point cease to be the systems they were designed to be and have become something else. Their original purpose has become lost in the complexity. However, the documentation, justification, advertising and other related evidence for the existence of the system still reflect its original purpose. It is true for bureaucracies, businesses, mechanical systems and electrical systems.

The reasoning is that as we fix problems within systems, or even as we improve them, entrenched interests protect their areas of control so that the original problems to be corrected remain (preserving the entrenched) while new controls and features are added on top of the old system (creating new entrenched interests).

If you want a simple example, look at phones. They are still phones. We call them phones. Yet their complexities have increased to something that we would not have recognized as a phone just a few years ago. Phones are not really phones anymore. Its purpose has changed based on what it does.

Livingston proposed that the principle is even more applicable to business organization and ultimately to government bureaucratic systems. Rather than correct mistakes, controls are added to mitigate the effect of the mistakes. This has the wonderful property of retaining the original bureaucracy and its people and budget while creating a new one with its own problems that will eventually require controls as well. We could create and endless list of things that fit this pattern, but the DHS and the TSA will serve nicely.
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 11:35 am
  #328  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD
I forget who it is, but someone on FT has a signature that states, "The purpose of a system is what it does." In other words, it doesn't matter what you originally intended a system or device to do; the only thing that matters is what it actually DOES.

Interrogations by government actors, no matter their intent or results, are still interrogations, and are still covered by 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendment restrictions.
How exactly is this an interrogation? And furthermore, would it still be unconstitutional then if it were private security as opposed to the TSA?
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 12:16 pm
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Originally Posted by joshwex90
How exactly is this an interrogation? And furthermore, would it still be unconstitutional then if it were private security as opposed to the TSA?
Is a government actor asking you a question?

If the answer is yes, then it's an interrogation.

Are you compelled to answer under color of authority, and/or threat of reprisal or penalty? Are you denied legal counsel during questioning? Are you given a Miranda warning prior to questioning?

If the answers are yes, then the interrogation violates your 5th Amendment rights.

Are you being given a choice between A) voluntarily surrendering your 4th protection against unreasonable search and seizure and your 5th Amendment protection against compelled testimony (i.e. the right to remain silent), or B) voluntarily surrendering your Article 4 Section 2 Clause 1 right to unobstructed interstate travel?

If so, then the searches and interrogations are un-Constitutional.

Excercise of one Constitutionally-guaranteed right cannot be contingent upon the "voluntary" surrender of another; the contingency makes the surrender of either right non-voluntary and thus un-Constitutional.

Government actors are questioning you, asking for personally identifiable information that is privilidged and private - up to and including the speaking of your name aloud, in full earshot of other people. How is that not an interrogation? Even if it's just the name thing?
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Old Sep 13, 2011 | 12:20 pm
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Originally Posted by joshwex90
How exactly is this an interrogation? And furthermore, would it still be unconstitutional then if it were private security as opposed to the TSA?
I don't think so. The constitution is a limitation on the powers of government, not on the actions of citizens. If the airlines or other NGO were to take the security of their property seriously (property = airplanes, flight crews, revenue paying passengers) and be wholly, and comprehensively responsible for them in exchange for the fare and conditions of carriage, they could require real security screening in addition to the TSA. They don't because they're indemnified as of 9/11/01.

The states may enact laws to protect its citizens from arbitrary discrimination and most states have public accommodation laws on the books which invoke criminal and tort liability for arbitrary discrimination, but I don't think there is anything that would prohibit an airline from setting up its own security screening (in addition to the TSA screening) and asking you if you what ever it wants, consistent with state accommodation laws.

I'm not sure that if a theoretical M-Go Blue airlines set up such a supplemental screening and ask its passengers if they liked Buckeyes and denied boarding based on the answer would meet the test of Michigan non-discrimination test, though.
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