Discussion: Constitutionality of BOS (Logan) BDO program
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:35 pm
#196
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WAS
Programs: AMEX Platinum, Global Entry, Priority Pass, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,594
So someone identified as a potential threat just has to say that they are a child of the DDR times and came from a family shattered by the regime and have repressed memories of crossings at Marienborn and being monitored by the Stasi in childhood and then they are simply no longer a threat?
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:38 pm
#197
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,964
I have yet to see how this game will be played with us, but based on the results of the name game I suspect that there is no plan in place to deal with us.
There were absolutely threats being made and passengers told that they would not be able to proceed unless they responded to the question in English and pronounced the name as the person expected it to be pronounced (and not necessarily as it is really pronounced)
Again, I fear the outcome of this for many travellers.
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:41 pm
#198
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,343
Hence, my earlier point about being diligent about filming these encounters and the aftermath.
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:47 pm
#199
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: TPA
Programs: AAdvantage 2 million, Marriott Gold
Posts: 960
I can see where these questions COULD be important to enter the country - establish IF a person should be allowed in. But once in, there is a Constitution and I THINK (not a lawyer, just an educated tax payer) you can not be interrogated unless there is a belief you are involved in a crime or attempting to committing one.
Wanting or having to fly is not a crime. A police checkpoint for DUI offenders cannot stop everyone and give a breath test or try to accuse a person of being intoxicated - lawyers, is that right? If they can, why not do a sobriety test on everyone leaving an establishment that serves alcohol? Then there are no DUI deaths and nasty crashes.
Why not stop every person with a sweatshirt on in the summer with the hood pulled over there head? They must be up to something, not just trying to look like a badass.
I would never state my employer or reasons for what I am doing. When I travel to the home city, their are protests outside the corporate offices and the attacks are aimed at the people walking by, as if the rank and file caused the mortgage crisis. So safety first!!
Wanting or having to fly is not a crime. A police checkpoint for DUI offenders cannot stop everyone and give a breath test or try to accuse a person of being intoxicated - lawyers, is that right? If they can, why not do a sobriety test on everyone leaving an establishment that serves alcohol? Then there are no DUI deaths and nasty crashes.
Why not stop every person with a sweatshirt on in the summer with the hood pulled over there head? They must be up to something, not just trying to look like a badass.
I would never state my employer or reasons for what I am doing. When I travel to the home city, their are protests outside the corporate offices and the attacks are aimed at the people walking by, as if the rank and file caused the mortgage crisis. So safety first!!
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:54 pm
#200
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,964
We have at least two regular posters on TS&S who are hearing impaired. Many on TS&S are ESL posters, and several seem to struggle with English (I am not referring to myself, unless someone cares to point out my lack of English skills - there are two who come to mind here who often post with poor spelling, grammar and sentence structure, making their posts quite unitelligible at times)
I am curious to see how those types of travellers will be treated.
I am curious to see how those types of travellers will be treated.
Aug 19, 2011 | 5:58 pm
#201
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 392
We have at least two regular posters on TS&S who are hearing impaired. Many on TS&S are ESL posters, and several seem to struggle with English (I am not referring to myself, unless someone cares to point out my lack of English skills - there are two who come to mind here who often post with poor spelling, grammar and sentence structure, making their posts quite unitelligible at times)
I am curious to see how those types of travellers will be treated.
I am curious to see how those types of travellers will be treated.
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:05 pm
#202
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
In this country we are not required to answer any questions for any reason. It's called the right to remain silent. Invoking that right does not disqualify us from all other rights protected under the law of this country.
End of discussion.
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:07 pm
#203
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:19 pm
#204
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
What to do with the TSA short term-
1. Stop the use and deployment of body scanning machines. They don't see into body cavities, under folds of flesh, or detect explosives. They are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses, and there are no peer-reviewed studies that back up the government's claim they are safe.
Properly procured and administrated use of Explosive Trace Detection Portals (puffers) addresses the technical shortcomings of the body scanners, while at the same time are non-intrusive and pose no health risks. Its unfortunate that the Chertoff Group and other lobbyists that profit from the deployment of body scanners have no interest in ETP technology that is being used in venues as varied as nuclear installations and the CN Tower in Toronto.
ETP, coupled with Walk Through Metal Detectors and x-ray of bags, is real security at the checkpoint, without the need for genital gropes.
2. Full accountability of TSA employees. A Citizen Review Board should be established to investigate allegations of screener abuse. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screeners, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today?
3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.
4. End the removal of shoes. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.
5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.
4. The wearing of metal police badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screeners name and identification number that is plainly visible. Phase out the police uniform and replace it with something that reflects the fact that screeners have no law enforcement powers. Eliminate the TSA Honor Guard as there is no need for screeners to dress up in costumes and parade around. Stop trying to cash in on the respect that people that serve in the military have earned.
5. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.
6. Stop trying to encroach on privately owned aircraft and kill LASP dead in its tracks. The Inspector General has determined that private aircraft are not a threat. Personal Liberties For the first time, the TSAs regulatory activities would be extended to personal GA aircraft, historic and vintage aircraft, and operators, passengers, and pilots flying for personal and business use. As such, the LASP is a radical departure from anything the TSA has enacted to date. It would, in effect, require governmental review and authority before you could operate your own personal vehicle.
7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.
8. End the mission creep. No more TSA appearances at sporting events, bus and train stations, or highways. Let the real law enforcement professionals tasked with these venues handle things without interference from the TSA. Why is the TSA showing up at thousands of non-airport venues every year when the own Red Team test score failures are "off the charts" according to Rep. Mica?
9. The junk science SPOT program gets the boot.
10. Stop any consideration of having screeners armed with firearms, or having any law enforcement powers. We hear of continuous cases where airport LEOs are the last line of defense against abuse by TSA screeners.
What to do with the TSA long term-
The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
1. Stop the use and deployment of body scanning machines. They don't see into body cavities, under folds of flesh, or detect explosives. They are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses, and there are no peer-reviewed studies that back up the government's claim they are safe.
Properly procured and administrated use of Explosive Trace Detection Portals (puffers) addresses the technical shortcomings of the body scanners, while at the same time are non-intrusive and pose no health risks. Its unfortunate that the Chertoff Group and other lobbyists that profit from the deployment of body scanners have no interest in ETP technology that is being used in venues as varied as nuclear installations and the CN Tower in Toronto.
ETP, coupled with Walk Through Metal Detectors and x-ray of bags, is real security at the checkpoint, without the need for genital gropes.
2. Full accountability of TSA employees. A Citizen Review Board should be established to investigate allegations of screener abuse. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screeners, instead of barking and asking Do you want to fly today?
3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.
4. End the removal of shoes. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.
5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.
4. The wearing of metal police badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screeners name and identification number that is plainly visible. Phase out the police uniform and replace it with something that reflects the fact that screeners have no law enforcement powers. Eliminate the TSA Honor Guard as there is no need for screeners to dress up in costumes and parade around. Stop trying to cash in on the respect that people that serve in the military have earned.
5. Get rid of the No Fly List. Theres no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.
6. Stop trying to encroach on privately owned aircraft and kill LASP dead in its tracks. The Inspector General has determined that private aircraft are not a threat. Personal Liberties For the first time, the TSAs regulatory activities would be extended to personal GA aircraft, historic and vintage aircraft, and operators, passengers, and pilots flying for personal and business use. As such, the LASP is a radical departure from anything the TSA has enacted to date. It would, in effect, require governmental review and authority before you could operate your own personal vehicle.
7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where Im flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must present my papers to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.
8. End the mission creep. No more TSA appearances at sporting events, bus and train stations, or highways. Let the real law enforcement professionals tasked with these venues handle things without interference from the TSA. Why is the TSA showing up at thousands of non-airport venues every year when the own Red Team test score failures are "off the charts" according to Rep. Mica?
9. The junk science SPOT program gets the boot.
10. Stop any consideration of having screeners armed with firearms, or having any law enforcement powers. We hear of continuous cases where airport LEOs are the last line of defense against abuse by TSA screeners.
What to do with the TSA long term-
The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:45 pm
#205
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Monterey Bay Area
Programs: Independent Libertarian
Posts: 326
Sample Dialogue!
Possible dialogue with bdo while waiting in line. (cell phone recording,legal)
tsa: Where are you flying today/
me: I don't want to talk to you.
tsa: I need to ask you a few questions.
me: NO!
tsa: IF you do not answer you will not be able to fly.
me: Maybe so Sonny but it won't be on your word. Get your supervisor!
tsa super:What's the problem? Why won't you answer questions?
me: I am not required to answer any questions.
tsa super: If you don't cooperate we can deny you flying.
me: Are you denying me my flight?
tsa super: YES or NO??
me: If NO then get out of my face!
me: If YES then state reason and get a LEO to escort me out!
me: Call the NEWS and give them my cell recording.
tsa: Where are you flying today/
me: I don't want to talk to you.
tsa: I need to ask you a few questions.
me: NO!
tsa: IF you do not answer you will not be able to fly.
me: Maybe so Sonny but it won't be on your word. Get your supervisor!
tsa super:What's the problem? Why won't you answer questions?
me: I am not required to answer any questions.
tsa super: If you don't cooperate we can deny you flying.
me: Are you denying me my flight?
tsa super: YES or NO??
me: If NO then get out of my face!
me: If YES then state reason and get a LEO to escort me out!
me: Call the NEWS and give them my cell recording.
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:47 pm
#206
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WAS
Programs: AMEX Platinum, Global Entry, Priority Pass, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,594
Aug 19, 2011 | 6:53 pm
#207
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
Aug 19, 2011 | 7:18 pm
#208
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
This really makes me nervous.
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."
Aug 19, 2011 | 8:17 pm
#209
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 230
This really makes me nervous.
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."
Like Ink, if I am looking at you and you are in a direct line of sight I can read your lips, but if your back is to me and you speak to me, 50/50 if I hear you.
More crap and aggravation to go thru, thank goodness I retire next year!
Aug 19, 2011 | 8:44 pm
#210
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: WAS
Programs: AMEX Platinum, Global Entry, Priority Pass, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,594
This really makes me nervous.
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."
I am one of those hearing impaired persons mentioned earlier. At a noisy checkpoint I have great difficulty with even basic instructions and I sometimes have to ask for clarifications two or three times. I fly about 50-60 times a year. If they start to ask me questions that I am not expecting, there will be a lot of "I did not get that would you please repeat it?" and "I am hearing impaired, and I have no idea what your are asking."
If I can hand the TDC my boarding pass and ID, get a squiggle, and proceed to the x-ray, test one has been passed. Test two is whether I get AIT or WTMD. If WTMD, no more conversation is necessary unless my bag gets a secondary. If I get the AIT, I opt out, tell them I am hearing impaired and demand to keep my luggage in sight. I explain to the person doing the frisk that I am hearing impaired and tell them that I will not be able to hear their instructions unless I am looking at them. They have been really good with my requests. I do not speak to the bag check guy. When he/she opens it the first thing they see is a notice that I am hearing impaired and can not easily answer questions.
If this becomes common, I guess I will have to pass another test to survive the airport.
My first answer will likely be, "I am hearing impaired and I can not understand your questions. Is this something I am required to answer to be able to fly? If yes, you may need to write them down or get a supervisor."