ACLU quesitioning enhanced patdowns
Aug 23, 2010, 9:21 pm
#76
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1) Clear definition of what they are doing and why.
2) Thorough and independently reviewed analysis/data demonstrating that what they want to do is:
A) Necessary
B) Effective
3) Thorough and independently reviewed analysis/data showing what it costs to do X (including cost impacts to the airlines and passengers) to provide a cost/benefit analysis. B) Effective
4) Proper training to ensure that everything is done correctly and consistently.
5) A formal mechanism that permits feedback/alternatives for law-abiding citizens who have reasonable objections or have been subject to unauthorized behavior.
6) Robust independent oversight of the entire life-cycle (planning, implementation, operation, etc.) to ensure that our tax-dollars are being spent appropriately and effectively.
IMO, the steps above are not too much to ask of the government in general, not just the TSA.
How many of you FT'ers would be happy with the 6 step process above? Additions/changes/etc. are welcome. I'll keep a running list if there is sufficient interest.
1. They fail to pass the WTMD without alarm after emptying pockets
2. A check of the carry on shows trace explosives that can not be resolved with a search of the bag.
3. The xray machine operator detects WEI in the carry on that is confirmed.
The pat downs we are discussing here are unreasonable searches (my opinion) due to the fact that I refused to undergo another unreasonable search (again my opinion) using the strip search machine.
Most of what ScatterX suggests is reasonable and therefore falls outside of the understanding of DHS. Here is what I would like, and we will see wings on Durocs before it happens:
If I fail to clear the administrative search and the TSA determines that a physical body search is necessary, I would be given a form, signed by the TSO and the supervisor that explains the reason for the search and why it was required. It could be simple check boxes, but the TSA should be required to document for the benefit of the PAX when exceptional measures are taken.
If the search is reasonable, it can be easily documented why it is reasonable.
If it is not reasonable, it should not be done.
Just dreaming, I know.
Aug 23, 2010, 9:21 pm
#77
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Aug 23, 2010, 9:22 pm
#78
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Maybe there's a wrongful dismissal suit in the offing - "I didn't sign up for this !
Aug 23, 2010, 9:30 pm
#79
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To me the mere idea of grabbing another man's crotch is repulsive. Surely even within the depraved ranks of TSOs there must be some who feel the same way and have no desire to become Officer Cockfondle. Can they refuse to do so but still remain a TSO assigned to x-ray or other duties only ?
Maybe there's a wrongful dismissal suit in the offing - "I didn't sign up for this !
Maybe there's a wrongful dismissal suit in the offing - "I didn't sign up for this !
It seems TSA employees are actively campaigning to take over that position.
Keep in mind that TSA employees seem quiet willing to fondle children or look at their naked images with the Strip Search Machines, all for no apparent reason.
I wonder how they can go home each day and face their families.
Aug 23, 2010, 10:23 pm
#80
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Well, the Gestapo TSA is getting more press about this.
http://www.consumertraveler.com/toda...ing-travelers/
http://www.consumertraveler.com/toda...ing-travelers/
One of the comments from that site:
Originally Posted by dcta August 23, 2010 at 5:30 pm
... my husband has an implant – a defibrillator and so he can not/should not go through the scanners. At DCA he had the back of the hand pat down ... but at Ft. Lauderdale, they put him between two free standing “walls” that we took to be a body scanner and had him position himself as we’re supposed to for that and then did a pat down ...
More evidence of TSA treating passengers with contempt.
Aug 24, 2010, 5:58 am
#81
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I agree, although likely for a different reason than you. If there is a true need (e.g., hernia test) and true consent (e.g., the grabbed is not an unwilling/coerced participant), there are cases where this is OK. The TSA grab-a-thon is not OK.
Aggressively fondling random people, simply because they want to fly is wrong. Why? TSA has failed to explain why this is even a good idea, much less necessary or critical, far less that this is cost effective. People are often surprised that this happens (they are not informed) and have no viable alternative (they are coerced), effectively making the willing participation a joke. This is personally offensive and degrading to many people. Reasons 4-1001 reserved for future ranting purposes.
This process is obviously a blatant overreach.
Aggressively fondling random people, simply because they want to fly is wrong. Why? TSA has failed to explain why this is even a good idea, much less necessary or critical, far less that this is cost effective. People are often surprised that this happens (they are not informed) and have no viable alternative (they are coerced), effectively making the willing participation a joke. This is personally offensive and degrading to many people. Reasons 4-1001 reserved for future ranting purposes.
This process is obviously a blatant overreach.
Aug 24, 2010, 6:05 am
#82
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Originally Posted by eyecue View Post
Interesting. I see all the objections voiced here and have to ask:
How many of you have had the pat down that you so strongly object to?
I know that some of you are going to say that it is a slipperly slope erosion of civil rights but there are hundreds of passengers a day that have it done and they dont mind in the least. So in your mind it is wrong and not justified in any circumstances. I read an article today that said pre 9/11 screening only caught 20% of the tests and that was the best scores. So where are we going to go to satisfy everyone?
Interesting. I see all the objections voiced here and have to ask:
How many of you have had the pat down that you so strongly object to?
I know that some of you are going to say that it is a slipperly slope erosion of civil rights but there are hundreds of passengers a day that have it done and they dont mind in the least. So in your mind it is wrong and not justified in any circumstances. I read an article today that said pre 9/11 screening only caught 20% of the tests and that was the best scores. So where are we going to go to satisfy everyone?
Aug 24, 2010, 7:16 am
#83
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In a legal sense, the claim of assault is probably incorrect. The process starts with getting your permission. If you agree to whatever procedure they perform on you, you can't then claim it's assault. Of course, if you refuse, they won't let you fly. It would be very interesting for someone to push the envelope and claim they were unduly coerced into giving permission. Somebody who must fly to address a medical condition (e.g., would miss a critical procedure in a hospital in a different city) would be an ideal candidate. I'd contribute to the legal fund in a heartbeat.
In other words, if you don't know prior to entering the checkpoint then you effectively have no choice. I believe that lack of such information before entering the checkpoint will result in an arguable case for assault. Of course TSA won't tell you before entering because they claim "SSI"... as much as anything else it provides the appearance that they are forcing unconsented searches on people to try and make the "big catch".
So where are we going to go to satisfy everyone?
Aug 24, 2010, 7:21 am
#84
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A proportion of passengers will welcome just about Anything For Security™.
The majority of passengers will suffer the TSA's indignity out of expedience.
A few passengers will balk and make their displeasure and resentment known.
Since group 3 is the smallest by far, application of TSA logic means that passengers (in general) "don't mind in the least". Cloud-cuckoo land, but we knew that.
Aug 24, 2010, 9:34 am
#85
Join Date: Jun 2010
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That shouldn't be too much of an issue. You enter the checkpoint, but you do not know that it will involve physical sexual assault. You can't refuse because you can't withdraw consent once entering the checkpoint. If you decline, the TSA still needs to complete it's search. I suppose if you refuse at that point, LEO can get involved and arrest you, forcing a search.
In other words, if you don't know prior to entering the checkpoint then you effectively have no choice. I believe that lack of such information before entering the checkpoint will result in an arguable case for assault. Of course TSA won't tell you before entering because they claim "SSI"... as much as anything else it provides the appearance that they are forcing unconsented searches on people to try and make the "big catch".
In other words, if you don't know prior to entering the checkpoint then you effectively have no choice. I believe that lack of such information before entering the checkpoint will result in an arguable case for assault. Of course TSA won't tell you before entering because they claim "SSI"... as much as anything else it provides the appearance that they are forcing unconsented searches on people to try and make the "big catch".
Excellent point, which I agree with logically. OTOH, TSA will claim you did consent or gave them probable cause (you lose either way). I've got a bad feeling this wouldn't turn out well for the gropee in our legal system. Maybe some of the legal eagles can weigh in.
Aug 24, 2010, 9:42 am
#86
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That shouldn't be too much of an issue. You enter the checkpoint, but you do not know that it will involve physical sexual assault. You can't refuse because you can't withdraw consent once entering the checkpoint. If you decline, the TSA still needs to complete it's search. I suppose if you refuse at that point, LEO can get involved and arrest you, forcing a search.
In other words, if you don't know prior to entering the checkpoint then you effectively have no choice. I believe that lack of such information before entering the checkpoint will result in an arguable case for assault. Of course TSA won't tell you before entering because they claim "SSI"... as much as anything else it provides the appearance that they are forcing unconsented searches on people to try and make the "big catch".
You're not. You can't. In fact your job is not to satisfy everyone. It's to uphold the Constitution.
In other words, if you don't know prior to entering the checkpoint then you effectively have no choice. I believe that lack of such information before entering the checkpoint will result in an arguable case for assault. Of course TSA won't tell you before entering because they claim "SSI"... as much as anything else it provides the appearance that they are forcing unconsented searches on people to try and make the "big catch".
You're not. You can't. In fact your job is not to satisfy everyone. It's to uphold the Constitution.
Aug 24, 2010, 9:57 am
#87
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So, since I live in LAS and travel for work nearly every week, and cannot remove shoes, have had skin cancer already, and travel with a CPAP, I would guess that I am going to get this enhanced groping.
Can any females report if they have experienced this at the entrance to the "D" gates? How invasive is it?
When I call for a LEO due to the groping of my "private area", what is the likely outcome?
I am ABSOLUTELY not going to just follow quietly. The only time someone is allowed to touch me there is if they buy me dinner or if they are a medical doctor.
As a rape survivor this will simply be not acceptable! The back of the hand is already tramatic enough! If some wanna be cop tries to grab me, I will probably come unglued.
Needless to say, I am very nervous about this...
Can any females report if they have experienced this at the entrance to the "D" gates? How invasive is it?
When I call for a LEO due to the groping of my "private area", what is the likely outcome?
I am ABSOLUTELY not going to just follow quietly. The only time someone is allowed to touch me there is if they buy me dinner or if they are a medical doctor.
As a rape survivor this will simply be not acceptable! The back of the hand is already tramatic enough! If some wanna be cop tries to grab me, I will probably come unglued.
Needless to say, I am very nervous about this...
Aug 24, 2010, 10:08 am
#88
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So, since I live in LAS and travel for work nearly every week, and cannot remove shoes, have had skin cancer already, and travel with a CPAP, I would guess that I am going to get this enhanced groping.
Can any females report if they have experienced this at the entrance to the "D" gates? How invasive is it?
When I call for a LEO due to the groping of my "private area", what is the likely outcome?
I am ABSOLUTELY not going to just follow quietly. The only time someone is allowed to touch me there is if they buy me dinner or if they are a medical doctor.
As a rape survivor this will simply be not acceptable! The back of the hand is already tramatic enough! If some wanna be cop tries to grab me, I will probably come unglued.
Needless to say, I am very nervous about this...
Can any females report if they have experienced this at the entrance to the "D" gates? How invasive is it?
When I call for a LEO due to the groping of my "private area", what is the likely outcome?
I am ABSOLUTELY not going to just follow quietly. The only time someone is allowed to touch me there is if they buy me dinner or if they are a medical doctor.
As a rape survivor this will simply be not acceptable! The back of the hand is already tramatic enough! If some wanna be cop tries to grab me, I will probably come unglued.
Needless to say, I am very nervous about this...
Aug 24, 2010, 10:09 am
#89
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Aug 24, 2010, 11:11 am
#90
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They work fine at the CN Tower in YYZ, so the initial technical shortcoming is not something that was insurmountable. However, Michael Chertoff has no financial stake in companies that manufacture ETP machines. Not so with Rapiscan and the Nude-O-Scopes.