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-   -   SOP discussion (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1024410-sop-discussion.html)

Spiff Dec 8, 2009 3:23 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 12950053)
Surely some legislator can see what TSA leadership is up to!

High crimes and treason.

ND Sol Dec 8, 2009 3:40 pm


Originally Posted by sbm12 (Post 12949155)
I just gave the older version a once-over and there are some subtle differences, enough for me to believe the claim that the document may have never actually been put into production. Interestingly enough, the sections that are redacted in the two versions are actually different as well. Page 5 of the papersplease doc has a rather obvious example. In that version 2A-3(A) has only the 25% redacted. In the version from the FBO.gov site the whole paragraph was removed, as was paragraph B which is the unlabeled part under A in the papersplease version.

So there are some differences but it is quite obvious that the bulk of the content is the same. The version we see may truly have "never been approved" but that doesn't mean that it isn't close enough to be considered a substantially accurate snapshot of what was going on at that time.


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 12950053)
TK's post on PV asking if the disclosed document was never official why it was the basis of a FOIA response is quiet interesting.

I would call it checkmate.

Surely some legislator can see what TSA leadership is up to!

From what sbm12 said in his post, they may not be the same.

Combat Medic Dec 8, 2009 3:42 pm


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 12950111)
High crimes and treason.

Congress is too busy with their own high crimes and treason to investigate someone else's.

Trollkiller Dec 8, 2009 4:30 pm


Originally Posted by sbm12 (Post 12949155)
I just gave the older version a once-over and there are some subtle differences, enough for me to believe the claim that the document may have never actually been put into production. Interestingly enough, the sections that are redacted in the two versions are actually different as well. Page 5 of the papersplease doc has a rather obvious example. In that version 2A-3(A) has only the 25% redacted. In the version from the FBO.gov site the whole paragraph was removed, as was paragraph B which is the unlabeled part under A in the papersplease version.

So there are some differences but it is quite obvious that the bulk of the content is the same. The version we see may truly have "never been approved" but that doesn't mean that it isn't close enough to be considered a substantially accurate snapshot of what was going on at that time.

I just gave the papersplease.org's FOIA copy and the "never issued" copy a thorough comparison. I printed out the papersplease copy and used Adobe Acrobat Professional to read the "never issued" copy aloud. (cool feature) I read along with the papersplease copy and verified every word.

The text is the EXACT same. The only differences between the two is formatting.

When the papersplease FOIA request was processed the clerk copy pasted the relevant text from the master into the SOP template. By using a different font size than the "never issued" copy caused the page breaks to be different. The part of the document that states the Revision number, Date, Implementation date, and Sensitive Security Information is a header. The SSI claim at the bottom is a footer.

This header and footer are part of a generic template used for the Mangement SOP SSI requests for this revision. Note the lack of page numbering on the papersplease copy.

The "never issued" document contains the proper page numbering. If the page numbering was redacted there would have been a black mark on the papersplease copy.

The missing "B" on the papersplease document was due to the clerk missing that paragraph on the initial copy paste. When the clerk corrected for the missing paragraph they failed to include the "B".

As for the difference in redaction, that would be because the people redacting were different and the purpose of the redaction was different. One was in response to a FOIA request and the other was in response to a bid.

I will have to disagree with your source and Blogger Bob's claim that this document was never issued. If by some chance this document was not issued then the revision number would have been different than the one on the papersplease copy.

pmocek Dec 8, 2009 4:53 pm

credit to the Identity Project, part of the First Amendment Project
 

Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 12950441)
I will have to disagree with your source and Blogger Bob's claim that this document was never issued. If by some chance this document was not issued then the revision number would have been different than the one on the papersplease copy.

Nice work, Trollkiller.

To clarify, when Trollkiller refers to "the papersplease copy" he means the copy that was published on the Web site of the Identity Project. IDP's Internet domain is papersplease.org. They are part of the First Amendment Project, a 501(c)(3) non-profit. IDP provides advice, assistance, publicity, and legal defense to those who find their rights infringed, or their legitimate activities curtailed, by demands for identification and build public awareness about the effects of ID requirements on fundamental rights, and are building a central repository of information relating to identity-based domestic security programs.

sbm12 Dec 8, 2009 4:59 pm


Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 12950441)
I just gave the papersplease.org's FOIA copy and the "never issued" copy a thorough comparison. I printed out the papersplease copy and used Adobe Acrobat Professional to read the "never issued" copy aloud. (cool feature) I read along with the papersplease copy and verified every word.

The text is the EXACT same. The only differences between the two is formatting.

I was waiting to find some spare time for my OCR and true text comparison to run during a lull at work. I haven't had a good one yet.

It seems that it is, in fact, just formatting that is different. I just happened to find that one bit my first time through. I guess I'm that good. :o

I will be preparing some specific details tonight on the two and will hit up the TSA with that either late tonight or first thing in the morning.

OnTheAsile Dec 8, 2009 4:59 pm


Originally Posted by sbm12 (Post 12949962)
I just received another "no comment" pending further review. She did acknowledge my comment in the PV post and that "We’re looking at all of the follow up questions that we’ve received to see what we can address."

That sounds more like "how we can cover our butts"

The fact that this was released with multiple TSA approvals is not a surprise. It follows the current government policy of "When in doubt,dumb down."
What is more important is that now we know in writing some of the things they are required to do and haven't; and some of the things they have been doing and were not allowed.
TSA managers and TSO's, now know we know .....

__________________________________________________ _____

Flaflyer Dec 8, 2009 5:07 pm

Finally the truth in the MSM
 
For those in the air who missed it: 12/8 ABC evening news. Charlie Gibson's lead story: TSA Effs Up Big Time, releases unredactable SOP online. Long story, not a kind word about TSA. Media finally running stories about the bozos at TSA that sound like FT threads.

And it will surprise no one what the news report contains: "We asked TSA for a spokesman to talk to us, but they refused to provide one." What? Blogdad Bob is on the payroll full time to spread propaganda and CYA spin. Did he have to stay home? Was his puppy sick today?

AngryMiller Dec 8, 2009 5:13 pm


Originally Posted by Flaflyer (Post 12950635)
For those in the air who missed it: 12/8 ABC evening news. Charlie Gibson's lead story: TSA Effs Up Big Time, releases unredactable SOP online. Long story, not a kind word about TSA. Media finally running stories about the bozos at TSA that sound like FT threads.

And it will surprise no one what the news report contains: "We asked TSA for a spokesman to talk to us, but they refused to provide one." What? Blogdad Bob is on the payroll full time to spread propaganda and CYA spin. Did he have to stay home? Was his puppy sick today?

Heheheh. The press smells blood in the water and they're swimming in for the attack. TSA might now see that this leak cost them much in the realm of public opinion.

Boggie Dog Dec 8, 2009 5:13 pm


Originally Posted by Flaflyer (Post 12950635)
For those in the air who missed it: 12/8 ABC evening news. Charlie Gibson's lead story: TSA Effs Up Big Time, releases unredactable SOP online. Long story, not a kind word about TSA. Media finally running stories about the bozos at TSA that sound like FT threads.

And it will surprise no one what the news report contains: "We asked TSA for a spokesman to talk to us, but they refused to provide one." What? Blogdad Bob is on the payroll full time to spread propaganda and CYA spin. Did he have to stay home? Was his puppy sick today?

On the ground and missed it. Would like to find a replay somewhere.

halls120 Dec 8, 2009 5:21 pm

The sh*t has indeed hit the fan inside DHS.

Spiff Dec 8, 2009 5:27 pm


Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 12950720)
The sh*t has indeed hit the fan inside DHS.

How can you identify the fan? :confused:

AngryMiller Dec 8, 2009 5:43 pm


Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 12950720)
The sh*t has indeed hit the fan inside DHS.

Since this wasn't a released document why are they scrambling around in full damage control mode? /sarcasm :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Take care since a wounded animal lashes out at anything.

Boggie Dog Dec 8, 2009 5:45 pm


Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 12950720)
The sh*t has indeed hit the fan inside DHS.

Will it be contained inside TSA?

sbm12 Dec 8, 2009 5:49 pm

Just got off the phone with a reporter. The WaPo Homeland Security Corespondent is apparently putting a piece together tonight for publication soon. ^^^

They're going after the TSA pretty hard it would seem.


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