Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
Nov 17, 2009, 11:38 am
#166
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 488
[QUOTE=peachfront;12833988]This is extremely disturbing to me also. If Phil wanted to do a test case of the system, he should not have involved a friend and screwed up his life and future as well. People don't always win test cases. You are judged by your associations. This other person may experience a lot of problems in the future because Phil blabbed that they were traveling together. Did the friend know that Phil was going to be making this test? In that case, I guess it's the friend's free decision to associate with this hassle.
The account we read, at least the one I just read in the first link, is from Phil's own page, so of course we're getting only one side of the story.
If you are a TSA or LEO, and you see someone creating a disturbance, from their point of view, you have to wonder why the disturbance/distraction is being created, and of course you are going to inspect any known associates or companions. It might seem unfair to us, but it probably seems like common sense law enforcement to them.
I believe that people need to be able to travel without ID, because IDs get lost and stolen all the time, and there isn't much alternative, but there's a big difference between having a lost ID and arranging to get there in plenty of time to request extra screening -- and just refusing to show ID and then pulling out a camera and creating something of a scene. Try it one way, and you can quietly continue to travel without ID if need be in an emergency. Start creating a scene and you may create resistance where you wouldn't have previously met any, causing not only you but many other people in future to be inconvenienced.
[QUOTE=Trollkiller;12826447]What concerns me is his partner that by the account I read was not doing ANYTHING, was seized by the police, and removed from public property for knowing Phil.
PeachFUR, you are assuming alot & we all know what happens to those that assume. Your statements are not statements of FACT and just assumptions or guess work. When you discover ALL the FACTS please advise us at that point.
The account we read, at least the one I just read in the first link, is from Phil's own page, so of course we're getting only one side of the story.
If you are a TSA or LEO, and you see someone creating a disturbance, from their point of view, you have to wonder why the disturbance/distraction is being created, and of course you are going to inspect any known associates or companions. It might seem unfair to us, but it probably seems like common sense law enforcement to them.
I believe that people need to be able to travel without ID, because IDs get lost and stolen all the time, and there isn't much alternative, but there's a big difference between having a lost ID and arranging to get there in plenty of time to request extra screening -- and just refusing to show ID and then pulling out a camera and creating something of a scene. Try it one way, and you can quietly continue to travel without ID if need be in an emergency. Start creating a scene and you may create resistance where you wouldn't have previously met any, causing not only you but many other people in future to be inconvenienced.
[QUOTE=Trollkiller;12826447]What concerns me is his partner that by the account I read was not doing ANYTHING, was seized by the police, and removed from public property for knowing Phil.
PeachFUR, you are assuming alot & we all know what happens to those that assume. Your statements are not statements of FACT and just assumptions or guess work. When you discover ALL the FACTS please advise us at that point.
Nov 17, 2009, 11:42 am
#167
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Do you think that I started out with the attitude towards TSA that I have today? Do you honestly believe that we all woke up one morning and said TSA is now the object of all the ridicule and scorn we can possibly heap on it? No, TSA worked on their image and it is what it today because they never learned how to stop digging once they found themselves at the bottom of a hole. TSA earned their reputation as one of the most hated government organizations.
They act as if they answer to nobody. From the barking idiots at LAX right up to the top rungs of the organization.
I *long* for the days of Argenbright again.
Nov 17, 2009, 11:46 am
#168
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somewhere near BWI
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Posts: 3,654
We do not have confirmation that Phil was "testing" the system; that is pure conjecture from some posters here at this point. Plus, based on the advice that has already been given (that Phil not discuss this situation here until he has talked to a lawyer), we will not have direct evidence of this assumed "test" for the foreseeable future.
Nov 17, 2009, 11:47 am
#169
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Question:
In this entire incident, it seems like most of the "wrongdoing," so to speak, was from the cop. The supervisor was clearly a clown, but it seems to me that he followed TSA procedures. Am I missing something, other than a little "Respect ma authori-tah!" attitude?
Mike
In this entire incident, it seems like most of the "wrongdoing," so to speak, was from the cop. The supervisor was clearly a clown, but it seems to me that he followed TSA procedures. Am I missing something, other than a little "Respect ma authori-tah!" attitude?
Mike
Nov 17, 2009, 11:52 am
#170
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: FrostByte Falls, Mn
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Posts: 2,157
Question:
In this entire incident, it seems like most of the "wrongdoing," so to speak, was from the cop. The supervisor was clearly a clown, but it seems to me that he followed TSA procedures. Am I missing something, other than a little "Respect ma authori-tah!" attitude?
Mike
In this entire incident, it seems like most of the "wrongdoing," so to speak, was from the cop. The supervisor was clearly a clown, but it seems to me that he followed TSA procedures. Am I missing something, other than a little "Respect ma authori-tah!" attitude?
Mike
Nov 17, 2009, 11:54 am
#171
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It's good that Phil is out. I followed the discussions earlier, and thought it was an interesting case. I'm sure if this issue goes to court, no real final decision will be handed down for years.
Hopefully, in the end, some of this TSA nonsense will be gotten rid of.
Hopefully, in the end, some of this TSA nonsense will be gotten rid of.
Nov 17, 2009, 12:04 pm
#172
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Mike, from what I've read about this the TSA supervisor went nuts when Phil began recording the process, called the police, and the police arrested Phil. A supervisor should have the skills to defuse pretty much any situation, especially when dealing with the public. I place the blame squarely at the TSA supervisor's feet (knowing just how accurately the news reports anything).
Is there anyone else who saw the bail info and thought, "Wow, I wonder if he can pay it with his credit card and get miles?"
Mike
Nov 17, 2009, 12:05 pm
#173
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hopefully on a plane...
Posts: 6,580
IMHO, all it will do for "our" future travels is make it more difficult, by hardening the attitude of the TSA toward flyers who don't have ID. Most of those flyers will be victims of robbery, pickpockets, and so on, and having yet another barrier in their path home isn't an improvement. Too bad we can't work with TSA instead of as adversaries. We all have the same goal, a safe flight.
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Nov 17, 2009, 12:17 pm
#174
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)
As has been mentioned before checking ID has nothing to do with security. All of the 9/11 hijackers had ID, so did Timothy McVeigh.
Everyone has atleast one ID so what's the point of checking it every 10 seconds.
As has been mentioned before checking ID has nothing to do with security. All of the 9/11 hijackers had ID, so did Timothy McVeigh.
Everyone has atleast one ID so what's the point of checking it every 10 seconds.
Nov 17, 2009, 12:44 pm
#175
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Northern Nevada
Programs: DL,EK
Posts: 1,652
-leaving the UK for the US. Requires a passport so its irrelevant.
-while in the US. Technically its not legal ID so it doesn't matter. The only legal ID a foreign national would have in this country is their passport or passport card
Trying telling that to the TSO in EWR on my way to Huston, Texas. Since I am a foreign visitor the only LEGAL ID while in the US is my passport but no she wanted my divers license when I questioned the reason for that since my german DL isn't legel ID (not even in germany by the way - needs to be accompanied by my ID card) the answer I got was to do as she told me. Running late on my connection I figured I wouldn't question her doubtful request. it did however leave me shaking my head
-while in the US. Technically its not legal ID so it doesn't matter. The only legal ID a foreign national would have in this country is their passport or passport card
Trying telling that to the TSO in EWR on my way to Huston, Texas. Since I am a foreign visitor the only LEGAL ID while in the US is my passport but no she wanted my divers license when I questioned the reason for that since my german DL isn't legel ID (not even in germany by the way - needs to be accompanied by my ID card) the answer I got was to do as she told me. Running late on my connection I figured I wouldn't question her doubtful request. it did however leave me shaking my head
Nov 17, 2009, 1:13 pm
#176
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,513
YOU are the one making assumptions. You seem to take as fact that they caused a "disturbance". Were you there? You seem sure that he chose to "start a scene" so I was hoping you could give us your whole eyewitness account.
Nov 17, 2009, 2:22 pm
#177
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Omaha, NE, USA
Posts: 1,424
Nov 17, 2009, 2:22 pm
#178
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Louisville, KY, US
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Posts: 6,106
We do not have confirmation that Phil was "testing" the system; that is pure conjecture from some posters here at this point. Plus, based on the advice that has already been given (that Phil not discuss this situation here until he has talked to a lawyer), we will not have direct evidence of this assumed "test" for the foreseeable future.
It's quite possible, once he pulled out his camera and started to document what was happening, that things went downhill.
Just speculation on my part. I could see this happening.