Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
Nov 16, 2009, 5:46 pm
#76
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Nov 16, 2009, 5:48 pm
#77
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Looks like New Mexico is a stop and identify state. So if Phil refused to state his name to the LEO's (which we don't know at this time is true), then the question becomes did the LEO's have “specific, objective facts establishing reasonable suspicion to believe the suspect was involved in criminal activity.”
Nov 16, 2009, 5:53 pm
#78
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It is unclear whether police were called because of Phil's refusal to show ID to TSA, or because Phil took photos at the TSA checkpoint. It appears to be the latter -- the photo taking. Interestingly, Phil contacted the Albuquerque airport (scroll down a bit and look for the pmocek posts) many months ago about this very same issue, and was told by airport officials that it is legal to take photographs at the TSA checkpoint.
)
Nov 16, 2009, 6:10 pm
#79
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Taking pictures at the documents check station should be pretty harmless. Very low tech there (i.e. jeweler's loupe and a black light LED flashlight). Nothing to arouse any suspicion. Sort of sounds like an out of control, answerable to no one TSA supervisor went a bit berserk at the thought of anyone daring to question either him or one of his lesser minions.
Nov 16, 2009, 6:13 pm
#80
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Nov 16, 2009, 6:25 pm
#81
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"Phil's Defense Fund
We've set up a Paypal account to raise funds to get Phil out of jail, and help defend him against these charges. Please consider contributing to Phil's legal defense."
Hope they update this with a link.
We've set up a Paypal account to raise funds to get Phil out of jail, and help defend him against these charges. Please consider contributing to Phil's legal defense."
Hope they update this with a link.
Nov 16, 2009, 6:35 pm
#82
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As others have stated, I wouldn't be surprised if the cops drop all charges. They exerted their pound of flesh by arresting a known protester exercising his Constitutional rights. The only problem is that they picked on the wrong guy. We can only hope that a TSA screener or two goes down as well.
Nov 16, 2009, 6:45 pm
#83
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,006
The page I got from the donate link said
Cannabis Defense Coalition
Please enter your donation amount and click Update Total.
Purpose Donation amount Total
Phil Moceck's Defense Fund - Arrested for taking photos at TSA checkpoint
Reference: phil
$ $
Please enter your donation amount and click Update Total.
Purpose Donation amount Total
Phil Moceck's Defense Fund - Arrested for taking photos at TSA checkpoint
Reference: phil
$ $
Nov 16, 2009, 6:53 pm
#84
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The nuance that might have set the Smurfs aflutter could have been the difference between "Oops, I forgot my drivers license. What can we do?" and "Sorry, I'm not going to show you my ID".
Can any of our forum legal experts provide some context around how long it is legal to be held in a jail cell without formal charges, and beyond that, until arraigned?
Isn't there a time limit before Habeus Corpus is essentially violated?
Can any of our forum legal experts provide some context around how long it is legal to be held in a jail cell without formal charges, and beyond that, until arraigned?
Isn't there a time limit before Habeus Corpus is essentially violated?
The time from arrest to presentation before a judge for either arriagnment of formal charges can vary. (gee isn't that convienent). The basic rule of thumb that is used is that the delay cannot be unreasonable. Most areas that i have seen typically try to have the charges and bail set within 8 hours for relatively common offenses. For more complex or less common offenses, i have seen it take between 24 and 48 hours (typically these are weekend arrests for big crimes like murder.) Also playing into the reasonable standard are other things that are going on related to the case. For example if the indication is that there may be more going on, they can hold the person longer until they can verify one way or the other on this.
Now even if the authorities drag their feet in doing everything the only real recourse a person has is a habeaous petition. On the rare occassion when they take too long a judge might dismiss the case, but that is rare.
To get to a more formal answer i would have to do a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. (most of the above is from my criminal procedure class)
As for the charges that are against our friend here, I think there are one or two that may stick depending on the overall facts. I think it is likely that the disorderly will get dismissed, unless the video shows a big scene getting created and the criminal trespass. I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
In the end, i am not sure how this is going to come out. My guess is that TSA comes out and says that ID is not required to fly, but if you have it in your possession then you must present it. They will use local laws to back up this position.
I hate the ID to pass the checkpoint rule. It does nothing. I can understand the airlines requiring it (they have a business reason), but not the feds to enter a sterile area.
Nov 16, 2009, 6:59 pm
#85
Join Date: Apr 2009
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I will try to answer this question as best i can.
The time from arrest to presentation before a judge for either arriagnment of formal charges can vary. (gee isn't that convienent). The basic rule of thumb that is used is that the delay cannot be unreasonable. Most areas that i have seen typically try to have the charges and bail set within 8 hours for relatively common offenses. For more complex or less common offenses, i have seen it take between 24 and 48 hours (typically these are weekend arrests for big crimes like murder.) Also playing into the reasonable standard are other things that are going on related to the case. For example if the indication is that there may be more going on, they can hold the person longer until they can verify one way or the other on this.
Now even if the authorities drag their feet in doing everything the only real recourse a person has is a habeaous petition. On the rare occassion when they take too long a judge might dismiss the case, but that is rare.
To get to a more formal answer i would have to do a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. (most of the above is from my criminal procedure class)
As for the charges that are against our friend here, I think there are one or two that may stick depending on the overall facts. I think it is likely that the disorderly will get dismissed, unless the video shows a big scene getting created and the criminal trespass. I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
In the end, i am not sure how this is going to come out. My guess is that TSA comes out and says that ID is not required to fly, but if you have it in your possession then you must present it. They will use local laws to back up this position.
I hate the ID to pass the checkpoint rule. It does nothing. I can understand the airlines requiring it (they have a business reason), but not the feds to enter a sterile area.
The time from arrest to presentation before a judge for either arriagnment of formal charges can vary. (gee isn't that convienent). The basic rule of thumb that is used is that the delay cannot be unreasonable. Most areas that i have seen typically try to have the charges and bail set within 8 hours for relatively common offenses. For more complex or less common offenses, i have seen it take between 24 and 48 hours (typically these are weekend arrests for big crimes like murder.) Also playing into the reasonable standard are other things that are going on related to the case. For example if the indication is that there may be more going on, they can hold the person longer until they can verify one way or the other on this.
Now even if the authorities drag their feet in doing everything the only real recourse a person has is a habeaous petition. On the rare occassion when they take too long a judge might dismiss the case, but that is rare.
To get to a more formal answer i would have to do a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. (most of the above is from my criminal procedure class)
As for the charges that are against our friend here, I think there are one or two that may stick depending on the overall facts. I think it is likely that the disorderly will get dismissed, unless the video shows a big scene getting created and the criminal trespass. I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
In the end, i am not sure how this is going to come out. My guess is that TSA comes out and says that ID is not required to fly, but if you have it in your possession then you must present it. They will use local laws to back up this position.
I hate the ID to pass the checkpoint rule. It does nothing. I can understand the airlines requiring it (they have a business reason), but not the feds to enter a sterile area.
Nov 16, 2009, 6:59 pm
#86
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 221
I will try to answer this question as best i can.
The time from arrest to presentation before a judge for either arriagnment of formal charges can vary. (gee isn't that convienent). The basic rule of thumb that is used is that the delay cannot be unreasonable. Most areas that i have seen typically try to have the charges and bail set within 8 hours for relatively common offenses. For more complex or less common offenses, i have seen it take between 24 and 48 hours (typically these are weekend arrests for big crimes like murder.) Also playing into the reasonable standard are other things that are going on related to the case. For example if the indication is that there may be more going on, they can hold the person longer until they can verify one way or the other on this.
Now even if the authorities drag their feet in doing everything the only real recourse a person has is a habeaous petition. On the rare occassion when they take too long a judge might dismiss the case, but that is rare.
To get to a more formal answer i would have to do a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. (most of the above is from my criminal procedure class)
As for the charges that are against our friend here, I think there are one or two that may stick depending on the overall facts. I think it is likely that the disorderly will get dismissed, unless the video shows a big scene getting created and the criminal trespass. I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
In the end, i am not sure how this is going to come out. My guess is that TSA comes out and says that ID is not required to fly, but if you have it in your possession then you must present it. They will use local laws to back up this position.
I hate the ID to pass the checkpoint rule. It does nothing. I can understand the airlines requiring it (they have a business reason), but not the feds to enter a sterile area.
The time from arrest to presentation before a judge for either arriagnment of formal charges can vary. (gee isn't that convienent). The basic rule of thumb that is used is that the delay cannot be unreasonable. Most areas that i have seen typically try to have the charges and bail set within 8 hours for relatively common offenses. For more complex or less common offenses, i have seen it take between 24 and 48 hours (typically these are weekend arrests for big crimes like murder.) Also playing into the reasonable standard are other things that are going on related to the case. For example if the indication is that there may be more going on, they can hold the person longer until they can verify one way or the other on this.
Now even if the authorities drag their feet in doing everything the only real recourse a person has is a habeaous petition. On the rare occassion when they take too long a judge might dismiss the case, but that is rare.
To get to a more formal answer i would have to do a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. (most of the above is from my criminal procedure class)
As for the charges that are against our friend here, I think there are one or two that may stick depending on the overall facts. I think it is likely that the disorderly will get dismissed, unless the video shows a big scene getting created and the criminal trespass. I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
In the end, i am not sure how this is going to come out. My guess is that TSA comes out and says that ID is not required to fly, but if you have it in your possession then you must present it. They will use local laws to back up this position.
I hate the ID to pass the checkpoint rule. It does nothing. I can understand the airlines requiring it (they have a business reason), but not the feds to enter a sterile area.
Nov 16, 2009, 7:06 pm
#87
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I think the ones that will stick are the concelling identity and failure to obey. These are the two that are two that have the most wiggle room for the state. Specifically, NM may have a rule that a person must obey any lawful request from a LEO to the extent possible. Thus, if phil had a license or passport in his posession he may be required to produce it when demanded by an officer, so long as the request is lawful. Given that they have a statute for identity, the request may be lawful and thus the withholding of the actual ID when in possession could be the trip. (i hope this makes sense).
There may be another statute that makes a DL property of the state and requires that it be presented to a peace officer on demand, but he isn't charged with violation that hypothetical statute.
Nov 16, 2009, 7:12 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,006
I read the failure to identify statute as proscribing the failure to identify, not the failure to produce identification. If he handed over his boarding pass, he did not conceal his name-- he in fact provided it-- and I don't see an issue.
There may be another statute that makes a DL property of the state and requires that it be presented to a peace officer on demand, but he isn't charged with violation that hypothetical statute.
There may be another statute that makes a DL property of the state and requires that it be presented to a peace officer on demand, but he isn't charged with violation that hypothetical statute.
Nov 16, 2009, 7:28 pm
#89
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That's assuming he's required to have ID on him at all times, isn't it? After all, supposing he had his boarding pass but did not have any other ID on him - what then? I don't suppose the burden rests with TSA/LEO to prove that he is 'willfully and with malice aforethought' travelling with no ID on him (vs. having lost his ID or had it stolen).
Nov 16, 2009, 7:31 pm
#90
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I think this has been addressed, both here and on POV. IIRC, TSA has wiggle room by saying exactly what you said - if you have it, you MUST present it. If you say you don't have it and they find it during the mandatory secondary, you are going to have a problem.