Rumor: MPC will go way of PPS
Jun 4, 2015, 10:39 pm
#736
formerly gemini573
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: LAX, HKG, and BKK
Programs: CX Emerald, WOH Globalist, Marriott Platinum, AA Lifetime Platinum, Virtuoso, Prive, STEPS, STARS
Posts: 2,233
It seems all the ones doing the complaining are the AA/AS redeemers. I don't hear anyone from BA, JL, QF, QR, complaining as much as AA.
Heck, I'd be happy if CX pulls a QR; give oneworld passengers their own lounge to use; G16...however, I'd doubt they would as I'm sure they're happy getting money from AA passengers using the lounge on the HKG-DFW flight.
Off topic. Just the other day, I was a The Arrival lounge and there was a British passenger who wanted to bring in a guest. The attendant said no. He made a big fuss about it. Then the wife (assuming), started complaining. As I went out, I told her, I"m happy you didn't let that lady in. Because if you did and someone saw that, they would complain and say why would you let them in as it's already a crowded lounge. Rules are rules.
Heck, I'd be happy if CX pulls a QR; give oneworld passengers their own lounge to use; G16...however, I'd doubt they would as I'm sure they're happy getting money from AA passengers using the lounge on the HKG-DFW flight.
Off topic. Just the other day, I was a The Arrival lounge and there was a British passenger who wanted to bring in a guest. The attendant said no. He made a big fuss about it. Then the wife (assuming), started complaining. As I went out, I told her, I"m happy you didn't let that lady in. Because if you did and someone saw that, they would complain and say why would you let them in as it's already a crowded lounge. Rules are rules.
Last edited by 77W_12A; Jun 4, 2015 at 10:52 pm
Jun 4, 2015, 11:22 pm
#737
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
BAEC costs 180,000 Avios to redeem CX LHR-HKG in J (120,000 AM).
QF FF costs 108,000 points to redeem CX SYD-HKG in J (80,000 AM).
Jun 5, 2015, 5:27 am
#738
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,477
Following your logic, you are suggesting CX to have a separate lounge/G16 for all status passengers travelling in Y including CX Gold and Diamond.
Jun 5, 2015, 6:43 am
#739
Suspended
Join Date: May 2015
Location: YUL/YVR
Posts: 105
No, QR does not give oneworld passengers a separate lounge. It separates the lounges based on Class of Travel and Status. QR has a lounge for business class and first class passengers regardless of their status. Then they have separate lounges for oneworld sapphire/QR Gold and oneworld Emerald/QR Pla.
Following your logic, you are suggesting CX to have a separate lounge/G16 for all status passengers travelling in Y including CX Gold and Diamond.
Following your logic, you are suggesting CX to have a separate lounge/G16 for all status passengers travelling in Y including CX Gold and Diamond.
Then Cabin and Bridge for GO/DM/OWS/OWE.
G16 for Silver and above. Maybe add something minor - like make it open 24 hours. Additional ~3 hours opened compared to other lounges.
Jun 5, 2015, 8:52 am
#740
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: HKG
Programs: CX DM, SPG Pt, Le Club Accor GO, Shangri-La GC Jade
Posts: 1,327
You are making the mistake of thinking the FFP programme exists to reward your loyalty. Its exists to bring/retain customers for CX. Those non-HKG passengers have easier alternatives than flying CX, so CX needs to draw them in somehow.
I've said before but i think the best way to achieve what they want is increase the mileage threshold and increase the multiplier for the premium cabins. Something like:
SL: 50,000
GO: 100,000
DM: 200,000
F: 300%
J: 200%
Y+: 150%
Y: 100%/50% (maybe full fare Y gets 150%)
That way you reward the guys who put the big revenues your way, and rid the lounges and priority lanes of the twice a year sale fare economy lot.
I've said before but i think the best way to achieve what they want is increase the mileage threshold and increase the multiplier for the premium cabins. Something like:
SL: 50,000
GO: 100,000
DM: 200,000
F: 300%
J: 200%
Y+: 150%
Y: 100%/50% (maybe full fare Y gets 150%)
That way you reward the guys who put the big revenues your way, and rid the lounges and priority lanes of the twice a year sale fare economy lot.
And, retain customer and bring in revenue is two not-so correlated issues which I believe you would also agree
Also, is HKG flyer really more difficult to get alternative than other port? Say TPE, no matter you fly HKG-TPE-HKG or TPE-HKG-TPE, the choices you have are the same. Of course most of the time home airline does have some extra points added so yes, for CX to attract outport incoming flyer they need something more to attract them like lower fare.
Finally, your proposed scheme is solely from the perspective of how to extract more revenue from long haul passenger. How about short haul flyer? I don't think CX can afford to cut away sector based qualification and solely rely on miles based. CX network has too many 5- hours flight and CX can't afford to lose them
Alternatively, go revenue base
Jun 5, 2015, 8:54 am
#741
Ambassador: Japan Airlines
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Posts: 16,400
Off topic. Just the other day, I was a The Arrival lounge and there was a British passenger who wanted to bring in a guest. The attendant said no. He made a big fuss about it. Then the wife (assuming), started complaining. As I went out, I told her, I"m happy you didn't let that lady in. Because if you did and someone saw that, they would complain and say why would you let them in as it's already a crowded lounge. Rules are rules.
Jun 5, 2015, 9:38 am
#742
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,797
Sorry I can't see how it's difference between rewarding customer loyalty and retaining customer. It's just the same thing but one is from the perspective of the customer and the other is from the airline
And, retain customer and bring in revenue is two not-so correlated issues which I believe you would also agree
Also, is HKG flyer really more difficult to get alternative than other port? Say TPE, no matter you fly HKG-TPE-HKG or TPE-HKG-TPE, the choices you have are the same. Of course most of the time home airline does have some extra points added so yes, for CX to attract outport incoming flyer they need something more to attract them like lower fare.
Finally, your proposed scheme is solely from the perspective of how to extract more revenue from long haul passenger. How about short haul flyer? I don't think CX can afford to cut away sector based qualification and solely rely on miles based. CX network has too many 5- hours flight and CX can't afford to lose them
Alternatively, go revenue base
And, retain customer and bring in revenue is two not-so correlated issues which I believe you would also agree
Also, is HKG flyer really more difficult to get alternative than other port? Say TPE, no matter you fly HKG-TPE-HKG or TPE-HKG-TPE, the choices you have are the same. Of course most of the time home airline does have some extra points added so yes, for CX to attract outport incoming flyer they need something more to attract them like lower fare.
Finally, your proposed scheme is solely from the perspective of how to extract more revenue from long haul passenger. How about short haul flyer? I don't think CX can afford to cut away sector based qualification and solely rely on miles based. CX network has too many 5- hours flight and CX can't afford to lose them
Alternatively, go revenue base
And in the example of TPE, it is not the point to point customers they care about. Those who do TPE-HKG-SIN/JFK/LHR/wherever could more easily do TPE-SIN/JFK/etc on BR, but if CX can entice them in with lower sector requirements, then why not?
Jun 5, 2015, 10:44 am
#743
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
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i understand that's the AA members' argument.
but, perhaps CX is giving up both cash fares and MPC tickets due to the current system. this must at least be a possibility right...just because something is doesn't necessarily mean it's optimal. IMO - admittedly, no doubt biased as a CX member myself - CX has gotten themselves addicted to low yielding F revenue from AA members and AA members have capitalized to the max. IME, CX needs to break the cycle because the F product is being cheapened and guys like me are putting our revenue elsewhere.
i am a reasonable example. i am absolutely voting with my wallet. This year I am flying SQ cash F on directly competing routes with CX, and have booked revenue this year to BR and EK that previously I would've given to CX. This forum has helped me tie together my issues with CX in premium cabins, particularly F and how I am being negatively affected by partner redemptions. I am still a CX Dm and consider myself fiercely loyal to CX. But....perhaps I was naive and stupid before...but I am feeling pretty dumb for spending cash on CX F and J, and accruing so loyally to MPC over the years. Especially since it seems AA members can basically hoard F inventory in advance (provided they have the miles, which shouldn't be an issue for serious frequent fliers), which is not something MPC members can do practically. This is annoying for all sorts of reasons.
Of the bigger issues, I'm tired of not being able to a.) get MPC awards, many of which are grabbed by AA guys very early, b.) how CX has incentivized AA members to book heaps of tickets in advance when we can't (no fault of AA members....CX's problem), and c.) when I pay cash, I often get a middle seat and the windows are all taken by AA award members. As a loyal CX customer, it's just annoying. So I've been voting my wallet this year. I've only spent perhaps $15k US on CX this year so far, and have spent more combined on other carriers - which would've been heresy for me a few years ago. I'm changing my habits because there are great products out there and CX F seems overwhelmed by AA members. It's a lovely product but I guess there is a psychological component - the nice guy you meet who is traveling with his family in F and tells you he booked on AA, I now know he spent 67.5k miles per person per seat, and probably had 2-3 different reservations in advance, taking inventory in the process. You're sitting there thinking...man, I'm an idiot.
CX can figure out how they want to optimize their revenue. If this continue this, that's okay I've got plenty of options to fly on and spend. It seems we're at some type of inflection point and regardless I'm keenly interested to see which way they go.
but, perhaps CX is giving up both cash fares and MPC tickets due to the current system. this must at least be a possibility right...just because something is doesn't necessarily mean it's optimal. IMO - admittedly, no doubt biased as a CX member myself - CX has gotten themselves addicted to low yielding F revenue from AA members and AA members have capitalized to the max. IME, CX needs to break the cycle because the F product is being cheapened and guys like me are putting our revenue elsewhere.
i am a reasonable example. i am absolutely voting with my wallet. This year I am flying SQ cash F on directly competing routes with CX, and have booked revenue this year to BR and EK that previously I would've given to CX. This forum has helped me tie together my issues with CX in premium cabins, particularly F and how I am being negatively affected by partner redemptions. I am still a CX Dm and consider myself fiercely loyal to CX. But....perhaps I was naive and stupid before...but I am feeling pretty dumb for spending cash on CX F and J, and accruing so loyally to MPC over the years. Especially since it seems AA members can basically hoard F inventory in advance (provided they have the miles, which shouldn't be an issue for serious frequent fliers), which is not something MPC members can do practically. This is annoying for all sorts of reasons.
Of the bigger issues, I'm tired of not being able to a.) get MPC awards, many of which are grabbed by AA guys very early, b.) how CX has incentivized AA members to book heaps of tickets in advance when we can't (no fault of AA members....CX's problem), and c.) when I pay cash, I often get a middle seat and the windows are all taken by AA award members. As a loyal CX customer, it's just annoying. So I've been voting my wallet this year. I've only spent perhaps $15k US on CX this year so far, and have spent more combined on other carriers - which would've been heresy for me a few years ago. I'm changing my habits because there are great products out there and CX F seems overwhelmed by AA members. It's a lovely product but I guess there is a psychological component - the nice guy you meet who is traveling with his family in F and tells you he booked on AA, I now know he spent 67.5k miles per person per seat, and probably had 2-3 different reservations in advance, taking inventory in the process. You're sitting there thinking...man, I'm an idiot.
CX can figure out how they want to optimize their revenue. If this continue this, that's okay I've got plenty of options to fly on and spend. It seems we're at some type of inflection point and regardless I'm keenly interested to see which way they go.
By definition, the AA redeemers revenue is making a profit (as otherwise, I believe CX would just reduce cash fares for F, though I can see how reducing fares for F, even by thousands of dollars, would result in little additional demand.)
SQ can be easy to redeem too-I have one HKGSFO in O class with only HKD4xx in taxes, just like CX, for just over 70K miles.
Jun 5, 2015, 12:26 pm
#744
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
This is a forum that brain-storms on different variables that an airline, and customers, can approach a problem. Why would someone that takes every suggestion so personally and offensively and reply arrogantly is beyond any mature adult's comprehension.
Jun 5, 2015, 12:37 pm
#745
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,978
I think our AA friends have good points. Why would CX want to give up easy money from AA redemptions and rather have the seats empty? CX F redemption is a liability to CX, AA F redemption at the very least is marginal revenue asset for CX. AA lounge users are a gain for CX, CX lounge users are a cost to CX. It's not hard to see this on face value, and I'm sure that's how some CX top management is reading the table too. Hence the status-quo stays.
However, some others here are providing a good argument too. This turns loyal CX spenders sour. When CX is too happy to make cheap gains and would rather anger long time CX loyalists, even the premium big spending ones. When CX tells its own members to cough up 220K round trip F, but they allowed AA members to just use 67.5K one-way. When the lounges are filled with AA members, but CX turns around and tell its own SL members that they are the problem and their benefits needed to be cut accordingly.
Hopefully, our AA friends don't see this as us vs. them attitude. But I think it's not too hard to expect an airline to offer preferential benefits to its own members over against another, even in an alliance, as long as alliance benefits are honored. I'm pretty sure BA has been doing this for awhile as I have been told plenty that I should "go to your own lounge", or "sorry, capacity control, can't let you in", I wonder has any AA member ever heard this from a CX lounge?
No doubt CX is making a gamble. That loyalists are too dumb to make in-depth analysis that we are doing here and will just stick with CX, and at the same time CX can milk as much as they can from their partner airlines such as AA or BA fliers. But I wonder there are enough people like sscwong that is already voting by his wallet.... but the worry is CX will see its bottom line lost, without realizing why, and further cuts CX members benefits because they are just "liability" and more relying on AA/BA redemptions, a very vicious cycle.
However, some others here are providing a good argument too. This turns loyal CX spenders sour. When CX is too happy to make cheap gains and would rather anger long time CX loyalists, even the premium big spending ones. When CX tells its own members to cough up 220K round trip F, but they allowed AA members to just use 67.5K one-way. When the lounges are filled with AA members, but CX turns around and tell its own SL members that they are the problem and their benefits needed to be cut accordingly.
Hopefully, our AA friends don't see this as us vs. them attitude. But I think it's not too hard to expect an airline to offer preferential benefits to its own members over against another, even in an alliance, as long as alliance benefits are honored. I'm pretty sure BA has been doing this for awhile as I have been told plenty that I should "go to your own lounge", or "sorry, capacity control, can't let you in", I wonder has any AA member ever heard this from a CX lounge?
No doubt CX is making a gamble. That loyalists are too dumb to make in-depth analysis that we are doing here and will just stick with CX, and at the same time CX can milk as much as they can from their partner airlines such as AA or BA fliers. But I wonder there are enough people like sscwong that is already voting by his wallet.... but the worry is CX will see its bottom line lost, without realizing why, and further cuts CX members benefits because they are just "liability" and more relying on AA/BA redemptions, a very vicious cycle.
Jun 5, 2015, 12:57 pm
#746
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
Cathay Boy: the term negative loyalty suddenly comes to mind. CX must be so confident it's loyal customer segment is so captive it can play the role of an abusive husband to a depressive housewife.
After all we can't go over and join AA with our spending behaviour and non-BIS activity. We aren't likely to fly AA or go over to *A.
It takes a lot of effort for a loyal customer like QRC3288 to run away.
And this sort of abusive spouse can go philandering with other airlines' loyal housewives without consequence.
Gonna take a break to post on my FB "I don't mind redeeming miles for all of you, but will someone please fly something non-CX?"
After all we can't go over and join AA with our spending behaviour and non-BIS activity. We aren't likely to fly AA or go over to *A.
It takes a lot of effort for a loyal customer like QRC3288 to run away.
And this sort of abusive spouse can go philandering with other airlines' loyal housewives without consequence.
Gonna take a break to post on my FB "I don't mind redeeming miles for all of you, but will someone please fly something non-CX?"
Jun 5, 2015, 3:26 pm
#747
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Programs: QR/AC Gold, VA Silver, IHG Plat, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 1,581
BAEC costs 180,000 Avios to redeem CX LHR-HKG in J (120,000 AM).
QF FF costs 108,000 points to redeem CX SYD-HKG in J (80,000 AM).
Jun 5, 2015, 5:34 pm
#748
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
Cathay Boy: the term negative loyalty suddenly comes to mind. CX must be so confident it's loyal customer segment is so captive it can play the role of an abusive husband to a depressive housewife.
After all we can't go over and join AA with our spending behaviour and non-BIS activity. We aren't likely to fly AA or go over to *A.
It takes a lot of effort for a loyal customer like QRC3288 to run away.
And this sort of abusive spouse can go philandering with other airlines' loyal housewives without consequence.
Gonna take a break to post on my FB "I don't mind redeeming miles for all of you, but will someone please fly something non-CX?"
After all we can't go over and join AA with our spending behaviour and non-BIS activity. We aren't likely to fly AA or go over to *A.
It takes a lot of effort for a loyal customer like QRC3288 to run away.
And this sort of abusive spouse can go philandering with other airlines' loyal housewives without consequence.
Gonna take a break to post on my FB "I don't mind redeeming miles for all of you, but will someone please fly something non-CX?"
Jun 5, 2015, 5:37 pm
#749
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Programs: Non-top tier Asia Miles member
Posts: 19,807
Jun 5, 2015, 6:26 pm
#750
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ...
Programs: CX DM / SQ PPS / VN Platinum
Posts: 1,078
I've been flying SQ regional whenever possible over CX. Their regional J is so much better (seats, food, no op-ups). I think I still prefer CX longhaul, but it's only matter of time before I end of doing some SQ longhauls that I would have done on CX when I see PPS within striking distance.