Koru Flyer

Hi

I am not sure I fully understand the situation and my actual options. I have a flight SYD-SIN-LHR-GOT r/n in late June that has already had cancellations and will not fly. I am not interested in petitioning the Australian government for permission to leave in June and wish to rebook for December (let's see) - also would be stuck with 14 days in a hotel room in SYD. Flight is booked on a very very cheap /I/ upgraded to /A/ with a GUF. Orginal ticketing was Jan 2020. So I am not interested in a vochure or refund as I expect this price to be the cheapest for a long time.

My understanding is that I can rebook into either /F/ or /A/ (depn on availability) in December on BA flights that are still scheduled to operate.

TA is telling me that I would need to pay fare difference and tax differences (Update 3 online does not explicitely state no add collect), and all that is waived is the change and canx fee, also TA is telling me that I have until Jan 2021 to select flights and I can then fly from 12 months from that date? So I have until Jan 2022 to travel. That seems too long to me. What is my TA reading that I am not?

TA is also suggesting that I should move to an open ticket rather than rebook. However, if I move to an open ticket and BA change the rules, then am I stuck with the new rules or do the old rules apply at the time it was moved to an open ticket?

Yes the BA sales office in SYD is not aligned to HQ, and Amex fares team is totally confused by GUFs....

KF

etiene

Can I just check that my understanding of current situation is correct...? I have a Flight+Car booking for my family which was meant to get them to my wedding in early July, booked a few days before Christmas 2019. Itinerary is LHR-SFO//PDX-SEA-LHR, so far no movement/cancellation on the TATL flights, though the AS codeshare has "cancelled" at least three times and been rebooked to the same flight number with small time differences [just AS changing the schedule up, changing aircraft etc].

Our own flights have been bent all out of shape, such that I could cancel those - and obviously it seems highly unlikely that travelling/enjoying this trip will be able to go ahead as planned. I'm assuming that the small changes so far wouldn't provide grounds to cancel for a refund [departure time from PDX has shifted earlier by about an hour I think]?

Beyond that, it's the waiting game - would a cancellation to one/both of the TATLs allow a cash refund, or are we constrained by the fact this is a holidays booking [I think another thread suggested 12hrs for cancellation?!]? My worry there is that on routes with several flights a day in the normal schedule, the booked rotation might cancel but that whichever rotation does go out still wouldn't meet the cancellation for refund criteria. In this particular case the option to rebook without a price difference won't be much good, as they wouldn't be able to use the trip before December 2020 - that really is a rather limiting provision. Finally, if they end up with a voucher: is that tied to the booked travellers, myself as the payer, or is it merely £X ecredit to be used on BA in however many transactions it takes?

corporate-wage-slave

There are two overlapping policies and your TA seems aware of only one.

BWC is pretty much as described, and applies to flights that were originally operating to (currently) the end of July. This is what the TA is describing. This is known as Guideline 2 and involves the FTV.

There is also "Customer Guidelines - Principal Coronavirus guidelines - Update 3 - 28Apr20 0850hrs (UK)", this allows rebooking until the ticket validity expires, without a refare exercise, so no fare difference. There are various conditions on this, so it depends on when you bought the ticket and that it was on a 125 plate and so on. If a BA flight is cancelled this would apply and is known as Guideline 1. If your flight is cancelled then you can use this Guideline 1 but you also have the option of Guideline 2. If your flight is not cancelled you can use Guideline 2 only. However the principle of the free rebooking is that you now have a specific date that you wish to travel on. If you want to to keep options open for when the situation becomes clearer then you will need to go FTV / BWC. But this policy is also constrained to one year from when you first bought the ticket, so that's also a factor in here.

corporate-wage-slave

Yes, with any BA Holidays booking you best wait until about 3 weeks from departure then if BAH haven't pro-actively cancelled on you then you can call up. I wouldn't overthink the connections stuff because (a) SEA isn't operating at the moment so unless the USA opens up again SEA will be cancelled. (b) Actually any flight cancellation will do including AS (c) by being BAH a wider change management piece applies to the ticket if the holiday aspsect is non-viable. So as things stand, and subject to any radical changes in the next month or so, you seem to be on course for a full cash refund. The FTV for BAH can be used differenly to flight FTVs, so long as one traveller from the original booking is on the new booking you can change the other names and draw down on the voucher if you don't spend it all at once. But I suspect you are just going to go for the cash.

etiene

I didn't realise SEA wasn't operating at the moment, but I'm also conscious of BA hoping to get some stuff going again by July on that front... And yes, would prefer a cash refund - if they could shift it to Summer 2021 then it might be worthwhile, but without BA doing something about that ticket validity limit that's a non-starter.

Interesting about (b) - is that really the case even if they "remain" on the same BA flight number that was booked? I would have thought BA would have tried to insulate themselves from the constant jiggery-pokery that their American partners do with their schedule. Otherwise the way these filter through the system [cancellation and rebooking to the same thing] would otherwise give almost everyone who booked a codeshare flight an out if they wanted it... The reason my parents couldn't travel before December is that I got them on the DL/AF/KL fare from BUD - they've already been rebooked at least twice to the same flight just because it has had all its flight numbers changed...!

testycal

If possible CWS, I would appreciate a post from you broken down and in your own words although perhaps it would be the same as posted on BA.com, a summary of Guidelines 1, 2 and 3. Your explanations are clearer and more to the point with the necessary nuances that vague bureaucracy often creates.

Thanking you in advance...hopefully you have the time to reply and add to the Wiki.

corporate-wage-slave

I'll add this to the wiki if it stands the test of time, but the possible confusion is that there isn't a Guideline 3, but there is an Update 3! Update 3 is to Guideline 1, if you are still with me..... Anyway, have a look at the following and let me know what you think.

So Guideline 1: applies if your flight is cancelled - you can rebook to the end of your ticket validity, typically a year after you first booked. No fees, no fare difference, no need for Avios space if applicable, it just needs an availability in the cabin concerned. This temporarily replaces the usual Standard Customer Guidelines of -3 days to + 14 days that applies normally to cancellations. The current Guideline 1 is on Update 3 to clarify that if you nevertheless want a FTV that is still possible. This would be relevant to anyone unsure of when to rebook, or who booked their tickets a long back such that their one year ticket validity is running out. If you think you need more time then Guideline 2 may be better. Advantages: cost free and simple replacement like for like; Disadvantage: constrained to the same service with minor route changes allowed; potentially only a short time frame and you need to make your mind up at the time of rebooking.

Guideline 2: Buy with Confidence (BWC): doesn't need the flight to be cancelled (but best to be patient, don't jump on this option) - you can move to April 2022, preserve your cash, any Avios, and companion vouchers in a Future Travel Voucher (FTV). You will have to pay fare difference is applicable, currently fares are generally low but that may not stay that way. If the new booking has a lower fare you still keep the residual value (and get Avios returned). Advantage: more flexibility on dates, preserves vouchers for future use, can change route or use via BA Holidays. Disadvantages: you may have to pay extra to get a replacement service if fares go up, and definitely not available online, you have to call. Also you need to be eligible for BWC, a set of qualifying dates apply.

Those elegible for Guideline 1 can also get a cash refund. Guideline 2 is open to anyone eligible for Guideline 1. But if you are on Guideline 2 only, BWC, there is no cash refund unless and until the flight is cancelled. Those on Avios bookings are in any case allowed to cancel 24 hours before their first flight, for a maximum hit of GBP35 / USD 55 per person taken from cash already in the booking - this is a standard flexibility which would apply anyway.

Above all, patience is a virtue. Leave any decisions for 3 weeks before departure on a BA Holidays booking and 2 or 3 days before departure for cash (commercial) or redemption (Avios) bookings.

testycal

Suggested additional information as to what rules apply if you begin your journey but wish to make changes on return leg date/time. Do standard change rules apply or also covered by Buy with Confidence policy. Does booking and staring your journey take the ticket out of the Guidelines and Update policies?

etiene

Would you mind explaining why BAH bookings are three weeks to departure, vs 3 days? I assume there is some relevant difference in the Ts&Cs...?

Thanks

corporate-wage-slave

Three weeks to departure is when those who have paid a deposit on BAH would have to pay the final installment. BA seem to treat the days leading up to that point as the time when they initiate pro-active cancellations. It's complicated by those with hotels in the package which were booked with inflexible terms, so if you paid the final installment you'd end up paying for a hotel that was not avalable for cancellation. However the main bulk clearing houses for hotels have generally released BAH from cancellation restrictions. So what should have been an awkward decision point - pay the deposit to keep the holiday alive or cut my losses by paying no more - hasn't in reality been an issue, BA have been allowing cancellations at 3 weeks anyway. Either way my advice for BAH bookers is to ring BAH about 23 days before departure if they have not had a pro-active cancellation email.

This may get more messy going forward: imagine a situation where countrues are more out of lockdown than the UK, and the hotels reluctant to let go of advance bookings. But that's anticipating something that hasn't happened yet, as far as I can tell.

corporate-wage-slave

This is indeed more complicated and Guideline 2 does not apply. Guideline 1 partly applies if there is a cancellation. So the following only applies to those who have a booking and have already flown at least one sector of the PNR:

If your next flight is still showing as operating:
- First of all, and most importantly - do NOT apply online for a refund or FTV. The BA.com guidance makes clear that FTVs are not possible for flights already started, and BA aren't kidding about that. A refund online may also be bad or zero value if it is treated as a Voluntary Refund.
- Be careful of online ability to change flights via MMB. If it works for you then that's great but there may be more options from ringing up or checking in this thread.
- If you are not sure about what you're doing, it's perfectly OK to ask in this thread, though it helps to have some details of the booking and an idea of the what the best outcome for the traveller would look like.
- In particular if you have an Avios booking and the flight is still operating then you need to consider moving the departure date for a potential change fee of GBP35//USD55. Don't cancel, you will get nothing back. You will also have to pay any changes to taxes, fees, charges, peak versus off peak between the old and new flight, it could be a small refund to you if you're lucky.. Depending on precise dates, you may be able to avoid or argue away the change fee if you are within the Buy with Confidence policy.
- For revenue tickets your options are to rebook or voluntary refund. The refund is likely to be bad value if you are on a restricted ticket, but sometimes the fare rules aren't too bad, so it's worth checking. How? By checking that screenshot you did when booking which outline the change fees. Otherwise you will have to call up or ask someone in this thread very nicely to reverse engineer your booking from the fare details and dates of booking + travel (it's not easy).
- For revenue rebooking, this is typically available without change fee but there may be a fare difference, assuming you are travelling before the end of July (currently) or you bought your ticket after Buy with Confidence policy was introduced. Often the fare rules are faily generous in this context, so if you can find an alternative flight in the same or lower fare bucket (e.g. using ExpertFlyer) then you may have to pay little or nothing.

If the your next flight is cancelled or you have a strong suspicion it will be. This is easier:
- you can have an involuntary refund (40-60% of the fare typically if this is the return half of the original trip). This will take a long time to be paid die to the manual cancellation process.
- for Avios redemptions you can have a refund of the sectors' Avios and charges without the redeposit fee. Note you will lose the value of the Companion Voucher if applicable.
- you can rebook within the the 1 year ticket validity at the time of purchase (possibly some flexibility on this). No change fees or fare differences, you just need availability in the cabin. So Guideline 1 in essence.
- Rebooking redemptions: no change fees, no need for redemption space - essentially this is Guideline 1
- you can't have a FTV, so one implication of this is that when your flight is cancelled at some point you need to decide exactly what your replacement service will be.

This is a complex area so by all means those in this scenario can reach on in this thread for guidance, we would need to know the main booking details, what has already been flown and what the desired outcome would look like.

etiene

Ah, so this is BA proactive cancellations because they can't actually provide the hotel...? In the case of my family it's a car hire addition and is already paid, so presumably can be treated much like a flight only booking...

corporate-wage-slave

No, it's the broader set of consumer protection that applies to Inclusive Packages (or just Package), which should be clear from the booking emails. Whereas with flights it's a fairly tight question as to whether BA provide the service, in the case of Package holidays then they have to work for your intended holiday. For a whole stack of reasons that wouldn't be possible at the moment and therefore BA is responsible for refunding a non viable package. It's not the deposit issue that's directly relevant, but given that many BAH bookings do need a hefty payment at that time - not in your case - it therefore makes it the sensible decision point. Either way, if you are on a Package then just wait until 3 weeks before making any decisions.

etiene

I guess I mean turned the other way: what's the downside for my family in waiting past the three week mark in the event that the flights haven't already been cancelled at that point?

corporate-wage-slave

BA Hoidays is working to a different logic and timelines compared to mainline BA. So yes, I guess you could hang on past the 3 week point, but unless there is a big change of circumstances in the next few weeks it wouldn't make much difference. In other words, if you were leaving in 3 weeks today, your would already have been cancelled by BAH, and as we get nearer to your actual departure date then I'd expect the same to happen.