BA to lease 9 Qatar A320s + crews during strike
Jul 19, 2017, 6:56 am
#391
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Would it be correct in saying that it is not possible to 'wet lease' cabin crew from another airline to operate on BA aircraft? Does it have to be the whole package (Pilots, Aircraft, Cabin Crew)?
I remember many years ago of being on a wet lease (can't remember if BA or not) but the operating crew were from the operating airline with a cabin crew member from the leasing airline supervising service.
S
I remember many years ago of being on a wet lease (can't remember if BA or not) but the operating crew were from the operating airline with a cabin crew member from the leasing airline supervising service.
S
Jul 19, 2017, 8:06 am
#392
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Would it be correct in saying that it is not possible to 'wet lease' cabin crew from another airline to operate on BA aircraft? Does it have to be the whole package (Pilots, Aircraft, Cabin Crew)?
I remember many years ago of being on a wet lease (can't remember if BA or not) but the operating crew were from the operating airline with a cabin crew member from the leasing airline supervising service.
S
I remember many years ago of being on a wet lease (can't remember if BA or not) but the operating crew were from the operating airline with a cabin crew member from the leasing airline supervising service.
S
35. It is further contended that BA has provided no evidence of seeking alternative solutions to third country wet leasing, such as using cabin crew from other airlines (either from BA associated companies or other airlines). Whilst the CAA would encourage BA to think constructively in exploring alternatives to wet leasing, there is no such requirement within Article 13(3))(b)(i) of the Regulation and the European Commission Information Note (paragraph 18 of my letter of 30 June 2017 refers) is silent on this issue. We do not think this is a legal condition needed to be fulfilled by BA.
(Emphasis in original.)Hiring in temporary staff to do jobs of striking workers may raise specific legal complications.
Jul 19, 2017, 8:11 am
#393
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Jul 19, 2017, 10:04 am
#396
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Where airlines take or provide dry or damp leases it tends to be on a longer-term basis, where it's worth the cost and effort of providing training on the 'new' aircraft. Two/four/six weeks and it's probably not worth it.
Jul 19, 2017, 10:33 am
#397
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Jul 19, 2017, 10:40 am
#398
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BA mgmt. must have foreseen these moves & consequences. Their main motivation is to bring the unions to their knees. They would rather spend the money ( lease payments less striker's pay etc saved = expense) in the short term than pay "forever" , giving them another step to move upwards.
Jul 19, 2017, 11:15 am
#399
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BA mgmt. must have foreseen these moves & consequences. Their main motivation is to bring the unions to their knees. They would rather spend the money ( lease payments less striker's pay etc saved = expense) in the short term than pay "forever" , giving them another step to move upwards.
Jul 19, 2017, 12:38 pm
#400
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After receiving advice from the CAA, the Secretary of State grants permission for BA to use QR aircraft between the 19th July and 1st August.
Permission to use the aircraft on the dates of 17th and 18th was refused. [During which no industrial action took place.]
Five private individuals and BALPA objected to the wetlease.
BALPA also raised this argument.
Permission to use the aircraft on the dates of 17th and 18th was refused. [During which no industrial action took place.]
The Secretary of State for Transport granted British Airways Plc approval to the use of these aircraft
between 19 July and 1 August 2017 only, concurring with advice from the CAA that no evidence has been
provided to demonstrate that the request to wet lease aircraft in the period 17 and 18 July met the grounds
of “exceptional needs”
[Source.]between 19 July and 1 August 2017 only, concurring with advice from the CAA that no evidence has been
provided to demonstrate that the request to wet lease aircraft in the period 17 and 18 July met the grounds
of “exceptional needs”
Five private individuals and BALPA objected to the wetlease.
BALPA also raised this argument.
It is argued by BALPA that “exceptional needs” within Article 13(3)(b)(i) should be
interpreted narrowly and must be limited to an airline’s need for an aircraft, whereas BA’s
actual need is not for aircraft, but for cabin crew with which to operate such aircraft. The
CAA does not agree that the Regulation should be applied in this way. Article 13(3)
provides a mechanism to allow an EU carrier to substitute wet-leased capacity, namely a
“package” of aircraft, crew and associated support, when, for example, such “package”
elements of its own capacity are, for whatever, reason unavailable. It is also noted that
the approval to be obtained under Article 13(3) is for “the operation” which implicitly must
relate to the whole package, including crew in the case of a wet lease.
interpreted narrowly and must be limited to an airline’s need for an aircraft, whereas BA’s
actual need is not for aircraft, but for cabin crew with which to operate such aircraft. The
CAA does not agree that the Regulation should be applied in this way. Article 13(3)
provides a mechanism to allow an EU carrier to substitute wet-leased capacity, namely a
“package” of aircraft, crew and associated support, when, for example, such “package”
elements of its own capacity are, for whatever, reason unavailable. It is also noted that
the approval to be obtained under Article 13(3) is for “the operation” which implicitly must
relate to the whole package, including crew in the case of a wet lease.
Jul 19, 2017, 12:40 pm
#401
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Jul 19, 2017, 12:49 pm
#402
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There were multiple basis on which to refuse the application, such as:
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
Jul 19, 2017, 1:04 pm
#403
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There were multiple basis on which to refuse the application, such as:
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
Last edited by KARFA; Jul 19, 2017 at 1:52 pm Reason: wrote your instead of you're
Jul 19, 2017, 1:07 pm
#404
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There were multiple basis on which to refuse the application, such as:
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
1. Lack of reciprocal agreements
2. Determination of exceptional circumstances
3. Adequate aircraft were available within the community, in fact right at BA's base.
4. The guidance to the regulation does not include industrial action in it's list of examples of exceptional circumstances.
That the CAA decided to disregard all of these points was not on legal interpretation but on opinion and they could have equally and legally decided that BA's application failed.
Jul 19, 2017, 1:09 pm
#405
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: London
Posts: 489
and from what I remember, the CAA's primary remit is for the consumer, so they will take the action that is best for the consumer.