corporate-wage-slave

I think the difference is written out in the first line of the text you quoted.

Three hours late at arrival is the limit for standard delays, where you sit on an aircraft, or wait at the gate, your service runs but is simply late. Typically, if LHR is involved, this is weather/ATC related anyway.

Two hours applies for cancellations or BA re-routes you, where you then get rebooked and put on a different service. So if BA had put you on an easyJet service which got you into London a bit earlier but still 121 minutes late they would also have to pay compensation.

Now that seems perverse, and it came about because though the cancellation/re-routing option is in the Regulation, the Regulation actually contains nothing about delays - that came from judicial intervention which created the 3 hour rule, but you won't find anything about that in EC261. By being a simple flat 3 hour cut off there is the strange middle ground for short flights between 2 and 3 hours late, where airlines may as well run you later than necessary since a re-routing could cost them.

Silver Fox

And now you say that, and I re-read Article 6 with brain fully engaged, I realise you are absolutely correct that Article 7 does not apply. Thanks.

cmclaren

I have been a lurker on these forums for a while however this is my first time registering and I am hoping that one of the many EU261 experts on this board will be able to help with my query. Thanks in advance to all of you who take the time to consider this.

On 26th May I was travelling from JFK to LHR on BA116. The scheduled time of arrival was 7.30AM however the actual time of arrival was 8:42AM (unfortunately I can’t remember if these were the correct times however I am trusting Flight Aware on this one). As a result of this I missed conformance for my onward flight to EDI which was schedule for 9:25 (BA1438 which was to be operated by Jet Time) to arrive at 10:50.

I was therefore rebooked on to BA1482 which is actually a flight to GLA. Due to the red eye flight this was on 27th May which (again according to Flight Aware) landed at 13:24. The downside of landing at Glasgow was that it added an extra hour on my trip home from the airport. (Just to note this was booked as a connection rather than two separate tickets).

Having read the posts at the start of the forum one point I would like to add is that I was informed at the time that I had been automatically re-booked on to a flight to GLA as I would otherwise be in terminal 5 until around 8pm when they might have been able to get me on a flight to EDI.

Unfortunately my knowledge of EC261 is rather limited, the only time I have ever had to rely on it was for a Flybe flight from BHD and they paid up without question.

Having looked in to it the first question is does it apply, as BA are a Community Carrier and I was departing from an airport in a third country (JFK) to an airport in a member state (EDI) it covers the flight. The next question is what class the flight is, in this case whether it is from JFK to EDI or JFK to EDI via LHR (I am not 100% certain whether it is the combination of the great circle route from JFK to LHR and then again from JFK to EDI or just the great circle route from JFK to EDI) it will still fall within Category 3.

The third question, and this is where I hope your experience can help, is what, if any, compensation should apply here.

My first thought was that as my final destination was EDI and I never actually arrived at EDI until over 3 hours after my original flight was due (given I had to pass by EDI following landing at GLA to get home) that it would be a straight forward claim of compensation for a delay in excess of 3 hours of a category 3 flight (therefore €600).

Having looked at it I am wondering whether, as I was “re-routed” to EDI via GLA in the end and then onward travel from GLA to EDI, it would be a claim for the reduced amount (€300).

I have contacted BA requesting compensation under EC261 (without specifying on what basis other than making reference to the overall delay – which in hindsight may have been a mistake). As is no doubt their standard response they have refused it stating:

Having rambled through that, and thank you to those who have taken the time to read and consider it, I am left wondering:

1. Whether I am actually entitled to compensation;
2. If I am how much is it for; and
3. How I should respond to BA’s refusal.

Note: One point I would like to add is that throughout all of this the staff at T5 were exceptionally helpful and friendly which was refreshing to see.

lorcancoyle

Welcome cmclaren, good that you've moved out of the shadows - despite the circumstances. What time did you reach EDI / how did you get there? I'm not as knowledgable as many, but my understanding is that BA was still responsible for getting you to EDI, even if they only flew you as far as GLA.

Isn't there a coach service between the two airports? Maybe following up and highlighting that scheduled travel time as an addition could be helpful. But could be complicated if you didn't actually travel between the two.

(I can imagine BA will take position it was a voluntary reroute though, as they did offer a flight to EDI which would have qualified for compensation. So without proof, e.g. coach ticket with time stamp or similar, to support an EDI arrival time...)

corporate-wage-slave

Welcome to Flyertalk and the BA board cmclaren, it's good to see you here, and I do hope you will have a chance to participate in the other threads in this and related forums.

I think you can plausibly argue that you were more than 3 hours late getting to EDI, given the re-routing, but you will need to point out that this is based on your booked end point rather than GLA. The amount is either 250� (late shorthaul) or 300� (late longhaul) depending on your point of view, or even 600� if you argue you were more than 4 hours late. So have another go at it, write a short note back to BA, and be prepared to push for a better outcome.

cmclaren

Thank you to both of you for your welcomes and your replies. I have pressed BA for further explanation and should hopefully hear back from them soon.

I did not ever travel directly to the airport as I was picked up from GLA and driven directly to Edinburgh (which given the mess that the M8 is in at the moment took longer than the flight from London to Glasgow did!).

I guess I will see what they come back with. Once again thank you for your words of advice.

seawolf

EU clarification on EC261/2004

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...16)3502_en.pdf

Looks like downgrade compensation have been clarified to apply only to downgraded segment and not the entire ticket. Also appears an upgrade obtained from frequent flyer program may not be eligible for compensation if downgraded.

corporate-wage-slave

Thanks for this. Just to explain this a bit: this clarification comes from the Commission, not Parliament or the Courts, so as it says in the introduction it doesn't change either the Regulation or how the Courts will operate. It may change how a National Enforcement Body operates, it replaces other "clarification" material, some of which has been thrown out by the Courts. In this case the link above largely quotes the legal cases that NEBs should be enforcing anyway. You are correct that this suggest that downgrades are calculated pro rata to the affected sector (page 18 section D), however most unusually it does not quote a legal source in the footnotes, it simply refers back to Article 10, which makes no such claim.

On page 11 there is this point, about downgrades off frequent flyer benefits: "The definition of downgrading (or upgrading) applies to the class of carriage for which the ticket was purchased and not to any advantages offered through a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme provided by an air carrier or tour operator."

Again no legal casework is mentioned here, my interpretation is that this relates to free upgrades such as the vouchers that come from Aegean or the former BMI, and so arguably GUFs (though for other reasons I would expect the GUF to be reinstated if not delivered). Or a status benefit such as the ability to select plum seats or Priority Boarding. If using UuA, for example, or a plain redemption, then I would regard that as a purchase, and thus covered. In that respect the Regulation itself is clearer than the clarification!

aidy

They tried to use this on me and a friend for our claim last week, as we work in the travel industry they claimed we had tickets not available to the public. However we didn't book on a concession so had evidence that we paid the public fare.

They have approved mine, but my friend is still pending

seawolf

I've had UuA downgraded (due to schedule irregularity) several years ago and BA partially refunded the segment as per regulation.

Let's see if BA changes their position in light of this clarification.

JesW

Hello FTers

I am looking into a delay to my parents' flight from Genoa a couple of weeks back. They got into Gatwick almost 4 hours late after the plane was hit by a red kite (the bird variety) coming into Genoa, before being turned around to go back.

An initial claim for EU 261 via the free Resolver website has been rejected.

Is there any clarity on where a bird strike stands in the pantheon of 'exceptional circumstances'? I know there was a non-binding court ruling on it last year.

My folks are pretty elderly and aside from the delay, they were kept sat on the tarmac for over 2 hours of the delay with a paltry glass of water and half a sandwich. Feel a bit angry about that and the stock response from BA.

Ta

dorbs84

First time member/poster here.

Reading through these regulations, the 3 hour point is really the cut off then for any claims of compensation at all?

I was on a flight from Heathrow to Baltimore last night, boarded at 16.10, due to leave at 16.30 but didn't leave the runway until shortly after 7pm. It wasn't quite the 3 hours, so is there any point in complaining to them, would they throw some avios my way as a gesture?

My colleague and I booked together, he's gold with BA, i'm silver (after this flight).

MPH1980

The important thing isn't departure time - it's arrival time v scheduled arrival.

In your case the flight arrived at 21:50 against a schedule of 19:50 - so just two hours late.

BA might throw some avios your way if you ask nicely - but I've had nothing in response to complaints for some time.

UKtravelbear

Welcome to FT!

You status makes no difference.

It is the difference between the scheduled and actual arrival time that matters for EU261 compensation to apply not departure.

It also depends on the reason for the delay. If it was weather related (there have been some thunder storms over SE England the past few days) or ATC related then there is no compensation anyway.

dorbs84

They told us it was a technical issue that they had to hand over to Boeing to check and sign off before we could fly.