corporate-wage-slave

Indeed I would understand that both compensation and refunding are payable. BA's only argument would potentially be that as soon as you threw in the ticket you were no longer a customer, and your delay is therefore zero, but personally I think that's clearly no what the regulation implies. There are plenty of points in the regulation where either/or conditions apply, including the refunded ticket OR re-routing. No such OR statement applies on compensation.

If you go to the Forum's Dashboard there is an EC261 thread with a lot more information which will help you, and what you should do now.

Dave Noble

The customer is entited to cancel and get refunded plus get the compensation based on article 5 of the regulation.

The passenger only ceased to have a ticket after excercising his right to a refund

jdjd

Thanks - will keep asking. It is perfectly possible there was weather, but I have no way of knowing, as you say.
Will post back as and when there is a resolution, or at least substantive progress.

lorcancoyle

I usually look on the day, so not sure how historic stuff works. The CAA appeal process does direct them to look at the Eurocontrol records (IIRC) so no harm stating specifically that the onus is on them to provide evidence from an independent source such as Eurocontrol. Personally I'd throw in a comment that citing spurious 'commercial sensitivity' is not acceptable and if you have to go all the way to court to force such disclosure you are happy to do so. I'd assume a judge wouldn't look to kindly on an airline only disclosing this at a very late stage when the consumer had asked several times...

ACARS

If referring to the 11th May the following was a 'tactical update' from Eurocontrol on the day....

03:48

Then at 04:48

Then at 06:15.....


Then at 08:55


And throughout the day till 17:44 (which is where I give up continuing to check through them all)
I think it is easily defendable by the airline given the ATC updates on the 11th, but I am no legal beagle.

flyingcharlie

Hi all. I was due to fly LGW-BOR tomorrow at 19.15 on BA2788. However at 13.07 today I received an email to say the flight has been cancelled and they've transferred me and my travelling companion to BA2786 which leaves LGW at 06.50 the following morning.

As we're only going for a long weekend, I've decided to book flights out on EasyJet instead so we don't lose a day's holiday. Luckily the flights only cost �72 each (one way). However as the original flights were booked with Avios in CE going out and ET coming back, that's still more money than we would have paid.

I'm assuming EU 261 doesn't apply as BA informed me of the change over 24 hours in advance. However I just wondered if it's worth pursuing some sort of compensation?

nufnuf77

Incorrect, it applies. The deadline for informing you is 14 days in these cases.

flyingcharlie

Thank you for your swift reponse nufnuf77. In that case I'll start pursuing a claim!

armouredant

Hi all. Slightly complicated EC/261 query here:

I was booked on IB6124 MIA-MAD 17:20-07:50 on 16/2/2016, to connect to IB3676 MAD-TXL at 08:45 the next morning. A schedule change moved the MAD-TXL to 08:35, which is bang on the MCT at MAD. However, a 30 minute departure delay from MIA made us 12 minutes late arriving at the MAD end, meaning we missed the connection.

Iberia agents met us at the gate with new boarding passes for another IB flight much later that day (about 10 hours iirc), but after chatting to the ticket desk, I was able to rebook onto AB8963 at 17:45 - still, over nine hours later (this would end up being a pain as AB bag drop at MAD didn't open til much later, so I spent the day landside at the airport rather than reclining in the lounge. Oops).

After reading a bit about trying to squeeze EC/261 out of IB, I've engaged flight-delayed.co.uk, who have corresponded with IB, but even after a statement of default they're still refusing to pay, citing extraordinary circumstances. Looking at the history of the route on FlightStats, it appears to be delayed 44% of the time, which hardly seems to be 'extraordinary'. Is this just Iberia's usual tack, or is there something about IB6124 on that day that I don't know about?

corporate-wage-slave

You better have a discussion with BA to find out if they will rebook you on to the U2 service (they won't, but make a note about that and ask them to add to the PNR), and also, assuming you are using a return ticket, that you need to ensure the return is protected. Depending on the timings, BA can save themselves 250� even at this late stage. Proceed carefully since you need to give them the chance to rebook you better than their current offer. You will get a full refund on the Avios back, but normally BA play hardball on paying compensation AND full refunds (which this isn't, and is in any case allowed for in EC261).

corporate-wage-slave

Have you really got a default judgement? If so, IB can say what they want, but they owe you money unless they can argue in court differently.

What is not clear here is the exact reason for the delay to the USA flight, that would determine extraordinary circumstances. Though the regulation says nothing about tight connections, it is easy to see that at a big airport like Barajas, a 10 minute delay could easily be attributed to ATC imposed movement controls. However that is what IB needs to prove in court (and apparently have not done), it is not for you to prove.

armouredant

The claims company I used sent a 'Notice of default', which to my understanding is just a letter saying 'You still owe us money', rather than any sort of third-party adjudication.

This, I would love to know. Is it possible to get ATC transcripts or weather info from MIA?

corporate-wage-slave

OK, that's not going to cut much ice. I am not sure a claims firm is going to do much to help here, it's not an approach I would recommend. You do the same amount of work and get less money.

Well at the risk of repeating myself, you don't need to disprove IB's claims, it is up to them to substantiate them. If you were going down the MCOL route potentially then you could make it clear that you'll press the button on serving the claim unless they specify very clearly why it is extraordinary. But to be honest, given the short window you were working within, I actually think it would not be difficult for Iberia to come up with something to justify a 10 minute delay. In other words, there are some very strong cases in this thread, I fear your case does not belong in that category.

lorcancoyle

I wouldn't view it as a slam dunk that Iberia pointing to a 10 minute ATC delay absolves them of responsibility, depending on the circumstances. Eglitis-Ratnieks could be interesting on this. If there are such regular ATC delays on a route it's arguable (you might not convince a judge though!) that it should be factored into flight planning. You can look at CAA guidance for LHR for example where they factor in a 25 minute taxi time - if an airline was only budgeting 5 mins taxi time such that they were frequently late it would be hard for them to justify their position.

I'd also point to the precise language in the preamble that calls out ATC delays, where it uses the phrase "long delay".

But I'd view pursuing that argument to the bitter end as a sporting activity, so might not be for everyone!

NickB

Strictly speaking, I do not think that this is correct. Under the regulation, it is for the airline to offer rerouting, not for the passenger to beg for alternative rerouting to that which is offered. The passenger has been offered rerouting which is not early enough to pre-empt compensation under the terms of Art 5; that should be enough. That said, it certainly does no harm to be seen to have been proactive in attempting to reach a solution should the matter end up in litigation. So, yes, the advice to speak to them about the rerouting is eminently sensible. But I do not think that it is a sine qua non within the terms of Reg 261/2004.