The 2016 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation 261/2004
#451
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Indeed I would understand that both compensation and refunding are payable. BA's only argument would potentially be that as soon as you threw in the ticket you were no longer a customer, and your delay is therefore zero, but personally I think that's clearly no what the regulation implies. There are plenty of points in the regulation where either/or conditions apply, including the refunded ticket OR re-routing. No such OR statement applies on compensation.
If you go to the Forum's Dashboard there is an EC261 thread with a lot more information which will help you, and what you should do now.
If you go to the Forum's Dashboard there is an EC261 thread with a lot more information which will help you, and what you should do now.
#452
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Posts: 44,812
Frustrating I agree, but you can't really expect BA to pay compensation when you don't even have a ticket with them, having chosen yourself to cancel it.
I'd say you have a low probability of succeeding with EU261, if you do want to pursue it further you might want to turn it over to a third party claim manager (who will take a cut if you win), if they're even willing to take it on.
I'd say you have a low probability of succeeding with EU261, if you do want to pursue it further you might want to turn it over to a third party claim manager (who will take a cut if you win), if they're even willing to take it on.
The passenger only ceased to have a ticket after excercising his right to a refund
Last edited by Dave Noble; May 17, 2016 at 6:08 am
#453
Join Date: Jun 2015
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The onus is on the airline to prove that extraordinary circumstances apply, it is not your responsibility to prove otherwise. So unless there's some clear evidence which means there is a weather issue which was well known, I'd keep pursuing until the evidence arives or you end up in court. So I'd simply say "I have no evidence of this, so I shall pursue my claim until you can persuade me otherwise".
However! Just one flight being cancelled looks odd to me, there again on 11 May I was travelling too, and there were weather delays. LCY was badly hit, but my service was delayed by landing restrictions.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...og-delays.html
However! Just one flight being cancelled looks odd to me, there again on 11 May I was travelling too, and there were weather delays. LCY was badly hit, but my service was delayed by landing restrictions.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...og-delays.html
Will post back as and when there is a resolution, or at least substantive progress.
#454
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Great idea, thanks.
I have now had a look here:
https://www.public.nm.eurocontrol.in...pec/index.html
But I am not able to work out if/how I can get the info I need.
I have tried looking at the relevant date (11 May) but I can't see how to get historic information. The post operations tab is unresponsive (tried a couple of browsers, presume I need a log in.)
Am I looking in the right place?
I have now had a look here:
https://www.public.nm.eurocontrol.in...pec/index.html
But I am not able to work out if/how I can get the info I need.
I have tried looking at the relevant date (11 May) but I can't see how to get historic information. The post operations tab is unresponsive (tried a couple of browsers, presume I need a log in.)
Am I looking in the right place?
#455
Join Date: Nov 2012
Programs: BAEC silver
Posts: 788
What's the current thinking with delays / cancellations that BA claims are caused by weather?
I had a cancelled flight LHR-MAD and was put on a later (IB) aircraft.
As far as I can tell, mine was the only cancellation on that route that day and delays in general at the two airports were not bad.
BA is refusing to substantiate the weather cause claim as it says that the information is commercially sensitive.
Any thoughts?
I had a cancelled flight LHR-MAD and was put on a later (IB) aircraft.
As far as I can tell, mine was the only cancellation on that route that day and delays in general at the two airports were not bad.
BA is refusing to substantiate the weather cause claim as it says that the information is commercially sensitive.
Any thoughts?
If referring to the 11th May the following was a 'tactical update' from Eurocontrol on the day....
03:48
Airports
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to weather ( low clouds)
very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low cloud)
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (fog ).
Moderate delays.
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to aerodrome capacity.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to weather ( low clouds)
very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low cloud)
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (fog ).
Moderate delays.
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to aerodrome capacity.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
Airports
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low clouds).
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low cloud)
Moderate to high delays.
LFPG (Paris De Gaulle)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low vis.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (fog).
Moderate delays.
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to aerodrome capacity.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low clouds).
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather (low cloud)
Moderate to high delays.
LFPG (Paris De Gaulle)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low vis.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to weather (fog).
Moderate delays.
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to aerodrome capacity.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
Airports
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPG (Paris De Gaulle)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low vis.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, fog.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to Special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to Atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
EGLC (London City )
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPG (Paris De Gaulle)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low vis.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly )
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, fog.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non available due to Special event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after reopening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to Atc staffing.
Moderate delays.
Then at 08:55
Airports
EGLC (London City)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, fog.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non-available due to Special Event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after the re-opening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to ATC Staffing.
Moderate delays.
LCCC (Nicosia)
West upper and lower sectors regulated in the afternoon due to Airspace Management.
High delays.
NMOC Brussels
EGLC (London City)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Very high delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, low cloud.
Moderate to high delays.
LFPO (Paris Orly)
Arrivals regulated due to Weather, fog.
Moderate delays.
LLBG (Tel Aviv/Ben-Gurion)
Arrivals are non-available due to Special Event between 0755 UTC and 0900 UTC.
Moderate delays after the re-opening.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to ATC Staffing.
Moderate delays.
LCCC (Nicosia)
West upper and lower sectors regulated in the afternoon due to Airspace Management.
High delays.
NMOC Brussels
And throughout the day till 17:44 (which is where I give up continuing to check through them all)
Weather
A number of en-route regulations have been applied in France and Germany due to CB activity and weather conditions are affecting arrivals to Paris TMA airports, London Heathrow and Nice airports.
Airports
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to Aerodrome Capacity.
Moderate delays.
EGLC (London City)
Arrivals regulated due to Aerodrome Capacity.
Low to moderate delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather, low cloud and heavy thunderstorm.
High delays.
LEMD ( Madrid)
Arrivals regulated due to weather, CB's.
Moderate to high delays.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to ATC Staffing.
Moderate delays.
A number of en-route regulations have been applied in France and Germany due to CB activity and weather conditions are affecting arrivals to Paris TMA airports, London Heathrow and Nice airports.
Airports
LTFJ (Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen)
Arrivals regulated due to Aerodrome Capacity.
Moderate delays.
EGLC (London City)
Arrivals regulated due to Aerodrome Capacity.
Low to moderate delays.
EGLL (London Heathrow)
Arrivals regulated due to weather, low cloud and heavy thunderstorm.
High delays.
LEMD ( Madrid)
Arrivals regulated due to weather, CB's.
Moderate to high delays.
Airspace
EBBU (Brussels)
Several sectors regulated due to ATC Staffing.
Moderate delays.
Last edited by ACARS; May 17, 2016 at 10:47 am
#456
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: London
Programs: BA Blue, Virgin Silver
Posts: 78
Hi all. I was due to fly LGW-BOR tomorrow at 19.15 on BA2788. However at 13.07 today I received an email to say the flight has been cancelled and they've transferred me and my travelling companion to BA2786 which leaves LGW at 06.50 the following morning.
As we're only going for a long weekend, I've decided to book flights out on EasyJet instead so we don't lose a day's holiday. Luckily the flights only cost 72 each (one way). However as the original flights were booked with Avios in CE going out and ET coming back, that's still more money than we would have paid.
I'm assuming EU 261 doesn't apply as BA informed me of the change over 24 hours in advance. However I just wondered if it's worth pursuing some sort of compensation?
As we're only going for a long weekend, I've decided to book flights out on EasyJet instead so we don't lose a day's holiday. Luckily the flights only cost 72 each (one way). However as the original flights were booked with Avios in CE going out and ET coming back, that's still more money than we would have paid.
I'm assuming EU 261 doesn't apply as BA informed me of the change over 24 hours in advance. However I just wondered if it's worth pursuing some sort of compensation?
#459
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,578
Hi all. Slightly complicated EC/261 query here:
I was booked on IB6124 MIA-MAD 17:20-07:50 on 16/2/2016, to connect to IB3676 MAD-TXL at 08:45 the next morning. A schedule change moved the MAD-TXL to 08:35, which is bang on the MCT at MAD. However, a 30 minute departure delay from MIA made us 12 minutes late arriving at the MAD end, meaning we missed the connection.
Iberia agents met us at the gate with new boarding passes for another IB flight much later that day (about 10 hours iirc), but after chatting to the ticket desk, I was able to rebook onto AB8963 at 17:45 - still, over nine hours later (this would end up being a pain as AB bag drop at MAD didn't open til much later, so I spent the day landside at the airport rather than reclining in the lounge. Oops).
After reading a bit about trying to squeeze EC/261 out of IB, I've engaged flight-delayed.co.uk, who have corresponded with IB, but even after a statement of default they're still refusing to pay, citing extraordinary circumstances. Looking at the history of the route on FlightStats, it appears to be delayed 44% of the time, which hardly seems to be 'extraordinary'. Is this just Iberia's usual tack, or is there something about IB6124 on that day that I don't know about?
I was booked on IB6124 MIA-MAD 17:20-07:50 on 16/2/2016, to connect to IB3676 MAD-TXL at 08:45 the next morning. A schedule change moved the MAD-TXL to 08:35, which is bang on the MCT at MAD. However, a 30 minute departure delay from MIA made us 12 minutes late arriving at the MAD end, meaning we missed the connection.
Iberia agents met us at the gate with new boarding passes for another IB flight much later that day (about 10 hours iirc), but after chatting to the ticket desk, I was able to rebook onto AB8963 at 17:45 - still, over nine hours later (this would end up being a pain as AB bag drop at MAD didn't open til much later, so I spent the day landside at the airport rather than reclining in the lounge. Oops).
After reading a bit about trying to squeeze EC/261 out of IB, I've engaged flight-delayed.co.uk, who have corresponded with IB, but even after a statement of default they're still refusing to pay, citing extraordinary circumstances. Looking at the history of the route on FlightStats, it appears to be delayed 44% of the time, which hardly seems to be 'extraordinary'. Is this just Iberia's usual tack, or is there something about IB6124 on that day that I don't know about?
#460
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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You better have a discussion with BA to find out if they will rebook you on to the U2 service (they won't, but make a note about that and ask them to add to the PNR), and also, assuming you are using a return ticket, that you need to ensure the return is protected. Depending on the timings, BA can save themselves 250 even at this late stage. Proceed carefully since you need to give them the chance to rebook you better than their current offer. You will get a full refund on the Avios back, but normally BA play hardball on paying compensation AND full refunds (which this isn't, and is in any case allowed for in EC261).
#461
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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even after a statement of default they're still refusing to pay, citing extraordinary circumstances. Looking at the history of the route on FlightStats, it appears to be delayed 44% of the time, which hardly seems to be 'extraordinary'. Is this just Iberia's usual tack, or is there something about IB6124 on that day that I don't know about?
What is not clear here is the exact reason for the delay to the USA flight, that would determine extraordinary circumstances. Though the regulation says nothing about tight connections, it is easy to see that at a big airport like Barajas, a 10 minute delay could easily be attributed to ATC imposed movement controls. However that is what IB needs to prove in court (and apparently have not done), it is not for you to prove.
#462
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,578
The claims company I used sent a 'Notice of default', which to my understanding is just a letter saying 'You still owe us money', rather than any sort of third-party adjudication.
This, I would love to know. Is it possible to get ATC transcripts or weather info from MIA?
This, I would love to know. Is it possible to get ATC transcripts or weather info from MIA?
#463
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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This, I would love to know. Is it possible to get ATC transcripts or weather info from MIA?
#464
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
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OK, that's not going to cut much ice. I am not sure a claims firm is going to do much to help here, it's not an approach I would recommend. You do the same amount of work and get less money.
Well at the risk of repeating myself, you don't need to disprove IB's claims, it is up to them to substantiate them. If you were going down the MCOL route potentially then you could make it clear that you'll press the button on serving the claim unless they specify very clearly why it is extraordinary. But to be honest, given the short window you were working within, I actually think it would not be difficult for Iberia to come up with something to justify a 10 minute delay. In other words, there are some very strong cases in this thread, I fear your case does not belong in that category.
Well at the risk of repeating myself, you don't need to disprove IB's claims, it is up to them to substantiate them. If you were going down the MCOL route potentially then you could make it clear that you'll press the button on serving the claim unless they specify very clearly why it is extraordinary. But to be honest, given the short window you were working within, I actually think it would not be difficult for Iberia to come up with something to justify a 10 minute delay. In other words, there are some very strong cases in this thread, I fear your case does not belong in that category.
I'd also point to the precise language in the preamble that calls out ATC delays, where it uses the phrase "long delay".
But I'd view pursuing that argument to the bitter end as a sporting activity, so might not be for everyone!
#465
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Location: London, UK and Southern France
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Strictly speaking, I do not think that this is correct. Under the regulation, it is for the airline to offer rerouting, not for the passenger to beg for alternative rerouting to that which is offered. The passenger has been offered rerouting which is not early enough to pre-empt compensation under the terms of Art 5; that should be enough. That said, it certainly does no harm to be seen to have been proactive in attempting to reach a solution should the matter end up in litigation. So, yes, the advice to speak to them about the rerouting is eminently sensible. But I do not think that it is a sine qua non within the terms of Reg 261/2004.